There two copies of the 290 page manuscript.

I have one and the person who helps me with layout.

Notice the total lack of citations???

This is Dan pearl-clutching.

Nothing more.

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2023, 05:10:30 AM

Quote from: Gegilles on September 05, 2023, 10:16:22 PM
It's absurd and nonsensical, which is why I made it public.

The letter makes it sound like you are copy pasting LL text and releasing it CC. Do you have any idea why he thinks this? Or is Dan Proctor having some kind of mental health crisis? I know he has had issues.

My overall impression of you two is that you are pretty abrasive* while he always seemed like a nice guy, but recent years seem to have been hard on him.

My politics are much closer to yours ofc, like most posters here. 😄

Quote from: Gegilles on September 06, 2023, 08:27:01 AM
There two copies of the 290 page manuscript.

I have one and the person who helps me with layout.

Notice the total lack of citations???

This is Dan pearl-clutching.

Nothing more.

Did you, or are you, planning on responding formally or ignoring the letter?  Seems this is not Dans first c&d.   Id love to stop this behavior from spreading.

Is Dan thinking that if someone uses OGL work and uses the CC license instead dan is losing rights to IP?

I guess he thinks that way.

He was probably fishing.

Dan doesn't have a copy and cant make this claim.

This all came about in the last week when he gave up trying to make Woke LL and went back to plan A. My Ks dropped concurrent to that development and its success spurred the letter.

No, I dont respond to letters that arent based in reality.

Well this is certainly an exciting development...if someone else is getting some success, sue them! Dan Proctor seems to have gone full retard.

Quote from: Gegilles on September 06, 2023, 08:44:56 AM
I guess he thinks that way.

He was probably fishing.

Dan doesn't have a copy and cant make this claim.

This all came about in the last week when he gave up trying to make Woke LL and went back to plan A. My Ks dropped concurrent to that development and its success spurred the letter.

No, I dont respond to letters that arent based in reality.

I saw some of his initial efforts for a 2nd edition of LL, and it didn't suit me at all. I have the original LL which I use as a resource, and I had some interest in seeing what the 2nd edition would be like. After my initial view of LL 2E I dropped all interest. I hadn't heard he was rethinking his approach. Was this announced somewhere?

There's a thread at Dragonsfoot on this same topic; those interested might find some more insight there.

Quote from: I on September 06, 2023, 11:56:11 AM
There's a thread at Dragonsfoot on this same topic; those interested might find some more insight there.

Found the link here:
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=91583

Seems that GG was a licensee for LL back in the day,
Goblinoid Games, make of Labyrinth Lord (Dan) went under,
GG offered to help in some way, shit went south quickly,
Now GG made his own game system and Dan seems to think that his rules are in the book that GG is about to publish because GG was going to take over LL when it was about to be deader than a door nail.


That seems to be the gist of the drama.

Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:47:53 AM
Well this is certainly an exciting development...if someone else is getting some success, sue them! Dan Proctor seems to have gone full retard.

While I tend to think Greg is being a bit of a jerk in publicising this, yes I think Dan has had some kind of mental health breakdown.

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2023, 01:18:15 PMWhile I tend to think Greg is being a bit of a jerk in publicising this, yes I think Dan has had some kind of mental health breakdown.

Whether or not it's baseless, it's potentially impactful to his Kickstarter, at least theoretically. I don't really feel he has an ethical choice other than to make it public.

Your right to privacy ends when legal threats begin. At least insomuch as the legal threats themself are concerned. Obviously I don't mean dig up dirt on people for fun.

Quote from: Bruwulf on September 06, 2023, 01:22:28 PM

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2023, 01:18:15 PMWhile I tend to think Greg is being a bit of a jerk in publicising this, yes I think Dan has had some kind of mental health breakdown.

Whether or not it's baseless, it's potentially impactful to his Kickstarter, at least theoretically. I don't really feel he has an ethical choice other than to make it public.

Your right to privacy ends when legal threats begin. At least insomuch as the legal threats themself are concerned. Obviously I don't mean dig up dirt on people for fun.

But publicising it seems likely to hurt the Kickstarter most.

DP's claims seem utterly baseless. If I were GG I might well have publicised the attack too. I too am an Aspy sometimes obnoxious academic with a high view of himself. 

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2023, 01:36:58 PMBut publicising it seems likely to hurt the Kickstarter most.

That's what I mean about an ethical responsibility to publicize it. I didn't say it was good for business. Essentially the C&D notice constitutes a risk that backers and potential backers should be aware of. Even if it's baseless and unlikely to go anywhere, they still deserve to know.

The C&D does not affect my backing if the project. I support Greg and all of his projects.

I used to love LL and ran it exclusive until I got a bunch of copies of BX for my table and extras for the shelf. Then Dan went all SJW for his announcement of what he wanted to do with his 2e of LL. I donated all my copies to the library. No room on my limited shelf and even more limited game time for woke companies.

I can't wait to see this Kickstarter fulfilled and likely take over as my main game of choice.

Quote from: wmarshal on September 06, 2023, 11:41:59 AM

Quote from: Gegilles on September 06, 2023, 08:44:56 AM
I guess he thinks that way.

He was probably fishing.

Dan doesn't have a copy and cant make this claim.

This all came about in the last week when he gave up trying to make Woke LL and went back to plan A. My Ks dropped concurrent to that development and its success spurred the letter.

No, I dont respond to letters that arent based in reality.

I saw some of his initial efforts for a 2nd edition of LL, and it didn't suit me at all. I have the original LL which I use as a resource, and I had some interest in seeing what the 2nd edition would be like. After my initial view of LL 2E I dropped all interest. I hadn't heard he was rethinking his approach. Was this announced somewhere?

Yeah, I was also mildly interested in a second edition of LL, but it didn't look great from the initial previews and when he went full woke in the wake of the OGL fiasco, it became utter trash.  Last I saw, which was several months ago, there were still fanboys on Facebook praising Dan's efforts at the woke edition, but I guess additional feedback caused that to flame out.

Now I do recall Dan referring to Advanced LL as .75 edition at some point and I know Greg does the same for his game.  That seems like a pretty flimsy reason for a C&D (as is the presence of a cyclops race), but Dan seems like a pretty insecure and fragile guy based on his own statements.  My feeling is that most of these games aren't that different from each other anyhow and lots of people buy multiple games for different reasons, including preferences over things like layout & art.  Perhaps the market is near saturation, but so long as KS's are getting funded and people are still making their versions of the game that others are willing to buy, who cares?  Getting litigious seems pretty lame.

I can respect your position, but due diligence was done before I made the decision.

Also, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is going to shoot across my bow without return fire.

Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2023, 01:18:15 PM

Quote from: Brad on September 06, 2023, 09:47:53 AM
Well this is certainly an exciting development...if someone else is getting some success, sue them! Dan Proctor seems to have gone full retard.

While I tend to think Greg is being a bit of a jerk in publicising this, yes I think Dan has had some kind of mental health breakdown.

Quote from: Gegilles on September 06, 2023, 02:19:09 PM
I can respect your position, but due diligence was done before I made the decision.

Also, nobody, and I mean NOBODY, is going to shoot across my bow without return fire.

Yes, like I said, honestly if I were you I'd likely have done the same. Although I lecture in copyright so maybe I'd have tried to find out what he thought his case was first.