Quote from: GameDaddy;952022Yes, the Holmes Bluebook was a re-write of the Original Dungeons & Dragons[/I...

Thanks for those details GameDaddy. I don't recall hearing about The Complete Warlock before, I'm going to seek it out.

Quote from: GameDaddy;952022.....

One other book that I'll mention that I picked up very early on that had a great influence on my games was The Complete Warlock from Balboa Game Company in 1978. I never really did use the spellpoint system in it for my D&D games, but we definitely did convert/steal a bunch of spells out of that book, and adopted the Thieves character class from there as well, as our gaming group really liked having more options when it came to doing nefarious things in game...

Great summary!  So true on the AD&D release.  We started using the MM right away but with OD&D rules, in some groups it was with B/X rules.  With you on power creep that started with the PHB.  Unearthed Arcana, IMHO, put it over the top.  People think it began with 3e, but it really began with 1e.

Forgot that spell points, instead of fire-and-forget go back that far, even before TFT I figure (in TFT your "HP" are spell points).  Always wanted The Complete Warlock but spent my hard earned dollars on the White Box instead.

Quote from: Xanther;952119With you on power creep that started with the PHB.  Unearthed Arcana, IMHO, put it over the top.  People think it began with 3e, but it really began with 1e.

That's disingenious or at least ahistorical. The whole OSR, for better or worse, decidedly went back to OD&D especially for that reason. So at least since ten years it's generally accepted wisdom that 1e is the first step into a direction that has been plumbed thoroughly way into Pathfinder. A conscious effort to go back to the place before AD&D1E was made, and they (were) called (it) OSR.

Disclosure: Now, myself, I have been there and back. And I like 1e the very best.

Quote from: Settembrini;952151That's disingenious or at least ahistorical.

Not really.  The 3e splatbook era took it to it's logical conclusion.  Certainly there are those in the day who thought there was power creep in 1e, and even today.  

QuoteThe whole OSR, for better or worse, decidedly went back to OD&D especially for that reason. So at least since ten years it's generally accepted wisdom that 1e is the first step into a direction that has been plumbed thoroughly way into Pathfinder. A conscious effort to go back to the place before AD&D1E was made, and they (were) called (it) OSR.  

I guess I didn't get the memo.  I thought OSRIC was one of the beginning OSR projects, before the term OSR even had much parlance.  OSRIC is decidedly 1e.  The reason I think most OSR is OD&D and B/X is those are just cleaner and easier rule sets to reskin.  1e is still a bear of a rule set, if you count everything in the DMG as a potential rule, also there is a much larger volume of great material in the MM and magic items in the DMG so it is hard for a clone to compete with that.

QuoteDisclosure: Now, myself, I have been there and back. And I like 1e the very best.

In hindsight I think Rules Compendium was the best of the D&D's.  B/X made the mistake to my teenage mind of being too directed to kids and not giving you the complete game when Basic came out.  OD&D, although started with it, was a mess of organization and not new user friendly, took me a long time to realize you really didn't need Chainmail or Outdoor Survival despite the references.  I still like the art design esthetic of OD&D though, very zine.  So back in '78, my pivotal game choice year, AD&D was the clear choice.  Played the shit out of AD&D, mostly by the book to the extent could understand it.  Never did grasp initiative nuances until DMPrata spelled it out.

Quote from: Xanther;952162I guess I didn't get the memo.  I thought OSRIC was one of the beginning OSR projects, before the term OSR even had much parlance.  OSRIC is decidedly 1e.  The reason I think most OSR is OD&D and B/X is those are just cleaner and easier rule sets to reskin.  1e is still a bear of a rule set, if you count everything in the DMG as a potential rule, also there is a much larger volume of great material in the MM and magic items in the DMG so it is hard for a clone to compete with that.

No there were AD&D holdouts without interuption since its publication. The earliest widespread publications were Hackmaster and these micronized yellow spine books, both leading up to OSRIC.

The OSR as a "movement" came after BECAUSE 1e was seen as part of the problem by some. Sean/Calithena was one big mover in that direction, he was one of the first to organize and collect the smattering of blog entries like Philotomy, Erol Outs fan-shrines and some quiet parts of Dragonsfoot (even there, it was much more BECMI than white box) and the likes around 2005-7. Fight On! being the most tangible product of this re-discovery of OD&D in the forum/blogger online universe.
Before that, proper OD&D was basically only cared for by collectors (at the Acaeum, frex).

EDIT 2 ADD:
btw, before the OSR we now know, the hipster thing to say was "got me my Rules Cyclopedia, it's all D&D I'll ever need, the best book evar!"
Before the retroclones, the RC was one of the poster childs.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;951818My experience playing in the 90s was making use of the 2nd edition player's handbook, the 1st edition DMG, and supplementary material from Basic, AD&D and 2e without any issue.

You, me and about 90% of everyone who played AD&D back then. Even those who didn't buy the new PHB still used some of the charts printed in the sample from Dragon Magazine (equipment, surprise, initiative, etc).

I never understood the hysterics over mixing editions ("Oh noes! The Basic troll has 6+3 HD and the AD&D one had 6+6!"). It's not like it required any great effort to take a thief (for example) from Holmes to BX to 1E or 2E or a mixture of all of the above.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;951954Sadly, that seemed the general perception of my generation; Gygax was a pompous embittered ass.

It wasnt until much later that a more full perception of him arose. But at the same time, its worth noting, this image was entirely Gygax's fault. The "Company Man Gary" was a failure at any sort of customer relations, basic etiquette and maturity, and a continuously botched Charisma roll.

To be fair, he received far worse than he ever dished out. I remember an ur-neckbeard many years ago, stating loudly in the local comics/gaming shop (in front of a bunch of kids and a few parents) that Gygax was an "asshole" because wizards couldn't use swords when everyone knew Gandalf used one. There were countless newsletters and such echoing this and similar sentiments which said more about those trying to Whitta on Gary Gygax than they did about the old man himself.

I think the biggest impediment to mixing AD&D with white box (+supplements) or the various flavors of basic is the hit dice, no?

Monsters in advanced: d8
MU: d4
Thief: d6
Cleric: d8 (also ranger but starting with 2d8)
Fighter: d10

Monster in Basic: d6
MU, Thief: d4
Cleric: d6 (and no rangers)
Fighter: d8

This was rather cruel to players during the transition period since the MM came out first and I had no hint that PC dice would also change. But even after the PHB and DMG were out, the HD inflation may have been a subtle source of discontent leading to fudging because higher variances would more radically divide the lucky and unlucky.

Quote from: Settembrini;952168...EDIT 2 ADD:
btw, before the OSR we now know, the hipster thing to say was "got me my Rules Cyclopedia, it's all D&D I'll ever need, the best book evar!"
Before the retroclones, the RC was one of the poster childs.

Yah it's kind of true.  I never did play by the RC, but got a copy nonetheless.  Recall how this all percolated up at Dragonsfoot, was there from near the beginning, don't want to relive the what's in and what's out of the OSR.  To me it should be a broad inclusive term that applies to a style of gaming, not a specific rule set.  Inclusion IMHO is key if we want our hobby to live on and expand.   Sean/Calithena was one of my favorite posters (and I think mod at some point) at DF.

Quote from: Arminius;952220...This was rather cruel to players during the transition period since the MM came out first and I had no hint that PC dice would also change. But even after the PHB and DMG were out, the HD inflation may have been a subtle source of discontent leading to fudging because higher variances would more radically divide the lucky and unlucky.

Believe me, the HD of a monster was the last thing that made a campaign cruel.  

On the second point it soon became a house rule that on HP rolls 1's became 2's and many a group played with max HP at first level.  It worked both ways, you got monsters with really low HP based on unlucky rolls.

True, but a monster's HP are something a player only has to deal with when they have the monster in front of them. A bad HP roll lives on until you die. Thus your house rule. I'm not sure there's any other game that (RAW) gave players as little control over their HP, and the bigger variances compound the issue--compensated somewhat by CON bonuses introduced in Greyhawk. In practice I think house rules have been very common in this area.

Quote from: Xanther;952222...many a group played with max HP at first level...

This is the new standard in 5e. Took long enough.

Quote from: Arminius;952224In practice I think house rules have been very common in this area.

And that adds some more to the kernel of truth that the company man was basing his pro-AD&D editorials on.

Huh? Not sure what you mean there.

Quote from: Xanther;952119Great summary!  So true on the AD&D release.  We started using the MM right away but with OD&D rules, in some groups it was with B/X rules.  With you on power creep that started with the PHB.  Unearthed Arcana, IMHO, put it over the top.  People think it began with 3e, but it really began with 1e.

Actually it started with Dragon. Alot of the UA stuff first showed up in Dragon. Chevalier, Barbarian, think the Acrobat too. And pretty sure a chunk of the spells and items. Players were introducing power creep. So again with AD&D and UA they were getting what they asked for/demanded. Though while strong. The new stuff in UA wasnt too horribly over powered yet aside from some notable examples.

Quote from: Omega;952234Actually it started with Dragon. Alot of the UA stuff first showed up in Dragon. Chevalier, Barbarian, think the Acrobat too. And pretty sure a chunk of the spells and items. Players were introducing power creep. So again with AD&D and UA they were getting what they asked for/demanded. Though while strong. The new stuff in UA wasnt too horribly over powered yet aside from some notable examples.

Oh it certainly did show up in Dragon, that and much more.  The Anti-Paladin being a favorite.   It seems you couldn't get an issue of Dragon without a new class thrown in.  Yet these were clearly all unofficial.  UA made some official.  Players love power creep, WOTC had that one nailed.