Quote from: Settembrini;952168EDIT 2 ADD:
btw, before the OSR we now know, the hipster thing to say was "got me my Rules Cyclopedia, it's all D&D I'll ever need, the best book evar!"

Hmm; I was a hipster and I didn't even know it!

Quote from: RPGPundit;953788Hmm; I was a hipster and I didn't even know it!

Yeah, not something to really take pride in. On the other hand RC is pretty much the bee's knees.

Yeah, my point is that while some people may have liked the RC for 'hipster' reasons, for a lot of people it was just the best rule-set around for a really long time.

Come on, Pundit, you already admitted being a rightwing hipster, don't go back on it;)!

Hopefully they reprint it in hardcover sometime so the collector scum can suck it. Wish I hadn't gave away my copy back in my early twenties when I gave away most of my RPG books. I thought I had kept it but looked around a couple of years ago and came up empty. At least I kept my CoC 5th Edition, Night's Dark Terror, etc.

Quote from: RPGPundit;953788Hmm; I was a hipster and I didn't even know it!

Well, well, let's say you were just 'hip', as you were authentically playing and promoting the RC up and down the internet. Your old campaign logs are still on Pandius, I think.
Good things are downward compatible and not everything hipsters like is bad. It's just that they like it for the wrong reasons:-)

Example: Mason Jars. Useful and cheap. But weird when made into a 'thing'.

Quote from: AsenRG;954100Come on, Pundit, you already admitted being a rightwing hipster, don't go back on it;)!

I probably do qualify as a hipster by various standards. But it's entirely unintentional, which either disqualifies me or makes me the most legit kind of hipster ever, depending on who you ask.

Quote from: RPGPundit;954933I probably do qualify as a hipster by various standards. But it's entirely unintentional, which either disqualifies me or makes me the most legit kind of hipster ever, depending on who you ask.

I'd go with "the most legit kind".
And yeah, the trick is to not care whether hipsters like the same things as you. Always worked for me, too:D!

Okay, what is this, 2003? Are hipsters (and/or being mistaken for one) still really what you're worried about?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;955042Okay, what is this, 2003? Are hipsters (and/or being mistaken for one) still really what you're worried about?

I think he was going for Ironic Sarcasm.

...

You've probably never heard of it. *pushes nonexistent glasses up the bridge of his nose*

Quote from: GameDaddy;952022Yes, the Holmes Bluebook was a re-write of the Original Dungeons & Dragons white book set.

Yep. You might even say an "edit" rather than a re-write. Much of the text is taken verbatim from the original D&D books, and Holmes even said "I went through the original three rule books and the first two supplements, Blackmoor and Greyhawk, of which Greyhawk is the greatest help. Trying to use the original words of the two game creators as much as possible, I edited a slim (48 page) handbook for beginners in role playing, published by TSR in 1977 as Dungeons and Dragons and usually marketed as 'the basic set.'” Holmes is firmly in the original D&D family.

QuoteEight times AD&D is mentioned in Bluebook BXD&D as an upsell...J. Eric Holmes was the Editor, so he was the one that included the upsell notes in Bx, probably as requested by Gary though.

Almost certainly. We've been able to compare the original Holmes manuscript to the published version, and the AD&D references were added. They aren't in the original manuscript.

Quote from: Settembrini;952168The OSR as a "movement" came after BECAUSE 1e was seen as part of the problem by some. Sean/Calithena was one big mover in that direction, he was one of the first to organize and collect the smattering of blog entries like Philotomy, Erol Outs fan-shrines and some quiet parts of Dragonsfoot (even there, it was much more BECMI than white box) and the likes around 2005-7. Fight On! being the most tangible product of this re-discovery of OD&D in the forum/blogger online universe.
Before that, proper OD&D was basically only cared for by collectors (at the Acaeum, frex).

FWIW, I wouldn't say I considered AD&D a problem. I like AD&D (and still run it, sometimes, as well as running my original D&D game). I like the idea of using original D&D as a sort of D&D "blank slate" or basic foundation on which to build my own D&D, maybe not following the path already taken with AD&D and later editions.

The earliest rumblings which became the OSR were probably Basic Fantasy RPG, Castles & Crusades, and OSRIC. Basic Fantasy is more classic D&D (i.e. B/X) based. Word on C&C was that it was going to be a kind of AD&D clone, but as it was being developed it became more and more apparent that this wasn't really the case, and dissatisfaction with its direction gave rise to OSRIC.

Definitely seems to me that original D&D became the banner most of the "OSR" picked up and ran with, though.

Quote from: Settembrini;952151That's disingenious or at least ahistorical. The whole OSR, for better or worse, decidedly went back to OD&D especially for that reason.

This is not accurate. It more accurate to say that many of those who prompt, published, or play a classic edition of D&D focuses on OD&D. But AD&D has it adherents as well. If I had to guess which classic edition is the most popular I would peg Moldavy/Cook B/X as the one with the most variants, clones, and near clones. B/X D&D seems to be the sweet spot for many who label themselves as part of the OSR.
 

Quote from: Settembrini;952151So at least since ten years it's generally accepted wisdom that 1e is the first step into a direction that has been plumbed thoroughly way into Pathfinder. A conscious effort to go back to the place before AD&D1E was made, and they (were) called (it) OSR.

I respect Gygax's work on OD&D more than AD&D because OD&D was developed more through actual play while AD&D was designed. However with the caveat that overall the advice and writing style of AD&D is top notch in my opinion, where there are problems it is in the actual mechanics. Many mechanics reek of "Now this sounds like a good idea" and obviously were not used in actual play. Somebody that was borne out by the anecdotes both then and later in the 2000s about how Gygax runs AD&D/D&D.

Quote from: Settembrini;952168NThe OSR as a "movement" came after BECAUSE 1e was seen as part of the problem by some.

OSR became a movement when the OSR storefront was put together on Lulu which made it obvious a lot of people were following the example that OSRIC, Basic Fantasy, and other retro-clones set. The term OSR was a after the fact label used as a shorthand to the group of people playing, promoting, and publishing for classic editions D&D.

And as I stated earlier if I had to crown "most popular classic edition for the OSR". It would be B/X D&D. It it is that way more because of technical reasons. First the original are straightforward in their content and well organized for the time. Second and more important nearly all of B/X is covered by something that can be found and extrapolated from the d20 SRD. This not the situation with AD&D or BECMI or OD&D+supplements.

QuoteSean/Calithena was one big mover in that direction, he was one of the first to organize and collect the smattering of blog entries like Philotomy, Erol Outs fan-shrines and some quiet parts of Dragonsfoot (even there, it was much more BECMI than white box) and the likes around 2005-7. Fight On! being the most tangible product of this re-discovery of OD&D in the forum/blogger online universe.

I concur that Calithena was instrumental in conveying the sense there was a larger community.

The OSR Storefront
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20100303144112/http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fGroupID=4672

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;955492Definitely seems to me that original D&D became the banner most of the "OSR" picked up and ran with, though.

My observation is that OD&D core book only is not what most people consider to classic D&D. It took the addition of the Greyhawk supplement turn OD&D into the form that most people recognized as classic D&D. Of all the classic editions Moldavy/Cook B/X D&D is the most straightforward presentation it only major quirk is race as class. B/X D&D is basically a cleaned up and re-edited version of OD&D + Supplements. In that regard is function well as a ur-D&D, a set of rules that common among most of the different editions of D&D.

Aside from race as class vs. pick class and then race, choice, most retro-clones then to use the B/X ur D&D as a starting point.

Now out of the early retro-clone Swords and Wizardy Core Rules pretty did what B/X D&D did. Matt Finch took OD&D and the supplement condensed and re-edited them into a compact one book set of rules. Because it was also 100% open content as well, many used that as a template for their own take on classic D&D.