Okay JimBob's thread about SotC got me thinking about historically accurate campaigns not really the games themselves but rather the experiences of folks who run games in historically accurate settings -homebrewed or published.

First off my group is composed entirely of Asians. Chinese, Indians and Malays. We play a variety of games. My current OtE campaign is set in Thailand (the pcs are all white expatriates). My CP2020 campaign is set in the Mid East(the pcs are natives of the region(s)). This is just to give you folks an idea of where I'm coming from. Oh, and my returning Hunter campaign is set in present day America (the pcs range from White, Black, Hispanic and lastly Chinese), but with some historical tinkering that clouds the present era in 70's miasma.

Here are a couple of campaigns that I think are relevent to the discussion. Some time back I ran a CoC campaign inspired by Walter Mosley's Easy Rawlins books. I shifted the timeline a couple of decades so, the 20's setting of CoC would remain. All the players played black characters battling the minions of C and racism.

Nobody really had a problem with the campaign or the very overt racism that drenched the setting, because of the detachment they felt towards their characters plights. After all, we were a bunch of Asians playing black characters in a horror game. Relating to the subject matter in the abstract really does not impart a sense of verisimillitude, if you get what I mean.

But, when it came to my homebrewed spy campaign set during the communist insurgency in my own country (Malaysia) and the players had to interact with our departing colonial master, things took on a more personal tone. Since all the players were playing characters based on their own ethnic group, present day issues and historical ones, between the various ethnic groups subtely filtered into the campaign.

There were moments where things got a little ...tense. But luckly we were all on the same page, and although there was a lot of in character discussions about certain issues , they were all game related. Our post game talks however were very "spirited".

Okay, for now, I've rambled on long enough. I'll add other stuff later. For now though, what about you folks ? Ever run games like this? I concentrated more on race, but gender played a huge part in both these campaigns - since more than half my current group who participated in these two campaigns are women.

Regards,
David R

I found that very interesting, David, thanks. Now, have I had something similar...

I can't think of a lot of examples, really. I've certainly played in games where character races could have been a factor, but usually the PC/NPC divide was a stronger issue than any other.

Recon: War Criminals
For example, I played in a Recon campaign and there was a firefight in a village between our US soldier characters and some NPC Viet Cong. The villagers fled from the firefight into their village hall, and after we'd knocked over a dozen VC, the last two or three fled into that village hall. The PCs, against my protests, fired rocket-propelled grendades into the village hall, machinegunning anyone who didn't come out with their hands up.

Later on in the campaign, after I'd left it in disgust at this sort of thing, the PCs were mercenaries in Colombia. They passed through a village and a small kid took a liking to one of the PCs. Another day into the jungle and the kid was still following the party. Someone said, "what are we going to do with the kid? He's a liability." The liked-by-the-kid PC said, "you're right," pulled out a pistol and shot the kid in the head.

I don't think this was racism. It was just "PCs are real and matter, NPCs are not real and don't matter." It was just atrociously bad roleplaying. The GM gave them in-game consequences for that, but that's another story.

So I'm wondering if a lot of potential racial/gender/etc issues are missed by bad roleplaying, or if the GM just doesn't bother bringing them up because they'll be ignored by the players?

Roman Women and Men
I once pitched a game based around the the Sulla-Caesar sort of era. The idea was that the PCs would be sidekicks to important Romans politicking and warring. By their service they would determine the course of Roman history; by distinguishing themselves in another's service they might rise to be important people in their own right.

The campaign never happened, because we had a woman playing with us who refused to play male characters, and three men playing with us who refused to play female characters. I explained that both women and men could be significant in this sort of campaign, but that at that time in Roman history, the men and women were often separate. Women couldn't speak in the Senate, for example. I explained that because we have a game group, we want the PCs to be together most of the time, but that's difficult if they're different genders; so they needed to be all male, or all female. I brought around one or two of the men, but the woman held out. Since they couldn't agree which gender their characters would all be, the campaign couldn't happen and we played something else.

It's possible that another GM could easily run a campaign in that situation, the PCs being often separated. But not me. I find it too difficult to switch from one min-group to another, giving enough time to each.

Anyway, I think in that case it was real-life gender issues which stopped the campaign from happening. So this reinforces what David R said, that when the social issues are something which the players themselves have experienced, that's when they get upset with it in a game session.


Call of Cthulhu - Death to the KKK!
I didn't play this game, but was told about it. A friend who GMs CoC often had an American player who happens to be black. They were coming to do some CoC module which has US black-white racial issues in it, lots of racist whites. The GM asked the player if he was okay with that, wouldn't be upset - the player said it was no problem, if the racism was only in-game he didn't care, it was only real-life racism which upset him. So they did the module, and then during the game the player was having his character torture and shoot out of hand any racists he came across. Which kind of fizzled the scenario

Again, it reinforces what David R said.


Bigot Gamers
On another occasion, I was playing in a fantasy campaign, and our characters were meant to be going on some grand Marco Polo sort of expedition, couldn't get reinforcements, so the GM had us make three characters each, of different ability levels. One player was absent the first session, and the GM asked me to make him some characters. It was a medieval setting, as usual for fantasy, but with real world elements - like a Catholic church. So one of the characters I created was Simon, a homosexual doctor. In game terms this was a disadvantage, since homosexuality was strongly condemned by the church. So it was a secret. Said so on the character sheet. "Secret: Homosexual [-15]" or something.

The player read over the character sheets, and roleplayed Simon coming onto the ship, saying, "Hello, I'm Thimon. Where's the thip'th boy?" (the "gay lisp") I put my head in my hands while the GM laughed the way some people laugh when they watch Funniest Home Videos.

I said, "mate, it's supposed to be a secret. And ship's boy? Mate, he's a homosexual, not a paedophile."
"But gay guys like boys."
"No mate, just because you like one gender doesn't mean you like children or adolescents of that gender. You're straight, but are you interested in 12 year old girls?"
"Well, if it was legal -"
"Say no more. No - no more."

So, Simon could have been an interesting character, with his inner nature, his urge to love another intimately, coming into conflict with the teachings of the church, but as he travelled to foreign lands he might find different attitudes, and in some places feel at home with his sexuality, though not with his culture, and so on. Instead poor Simon got a dickhead for a player.

So....?
Well, so I've rarely deliberately tried to introduce real-world gender, racial, etc issues. Mostly because I've found more than enough action coming out of characters' individual issues.

Quote from: JimBobOzI don't think this was racism. It was just "PCs are real and matter, NPCs are not real and don't matter."

I'm going to highlight this particular section out of a (really great!) post, because I think it's so particularly awesome.

I think the whole "Americans are real and matter, Vietnamese are not real and don't matter" thing is pretty powerful stuff to explore in any Vietnam era game.  The fact that gamer-sensibilities can lead you into it without your quite realizing what you're getting into can be awesome, if the players pony up some emotional involvement and are able to look at the things they have just done with a fair level of honesty.  We become monsters in our stories very easily, by trying to be heroes in a half-assed way.

It is patently obvious from your description that those guys were not milking this for any sort of drama.  But there's potential there ... grim, bloody, horrifying potential.

Quote from: David ROkay, for now, I've rambled on long enough. I'll add other stuff later. For now though, what about you folks ? Ever run games like this?

I'm conscious of sexual and racial themes in the game the same way I am in regular conversation -- that is, my language and focus might change slightly depending on who's in the room (I tend to curse less around women, forex).

I tend to stay away from themes I wouldn't bring up in polite company unless I know the people involved really well... and even then I feel a bit uncomfortable going outside of bounds (this happens more with graphic description than with the racial / sexual issues you're asking about).

Most of the people I play with are very thick-skinned and not-squeamish, so it's less of an issue than it could be.

I think using real-life, not-distant-past issues adds to the depth and meaning of the game, when done well and detracts significantly when done poorly, so it's kind of a high wire act.

I find that having a nuanced perspective of any issues involved and staying *away* from things I might be personally involved in is key: accurately and fairly portraying another culture or sensitive material is hard enough for things I can be objective about. For issues I'm personally invested in, it's nearly impossible and the risk of things getting out of hand are much higher.

Cheers,
-E.

I have two examples.

Respublica
This is my "I wish it were commercially viable historic Republic era Roman" game. We had six players, two of which were women.  The women played better men then most of the males at the table and carried out the separation of the sexes well. It ran fairly long and involved issues of race bias, religious intolerance, and of course, gender issues including the treatment of Roman society towards homosexuals.

I will say this, despite all of these being important, it was not the focus of the campaign but an integral part of the issues. The point of the campaign was to stop a senator from rising in power. They failed but it was a great campaign none the less.

Monsters in the South
For Shades of Earth, I ran an entirely non-magical, historical campaign set in 1938 Mississippi. The group was made up of four black men and one white woman. A player's character's brother was lynched and the campaign revolved around his struggle (and the group's) with what to do and what the could do.

That had a couple of very awkward encounters, some that involved the white woman playing her self against a corrupt sheriff and one where I had to represent the Klan which actually made me a bit uncomfortable. However, it was a very powerful campaign and truly interesting.

Excellent and interesting post David.

Bill

Edited for clarity.

Quote from: HinterWeltOne of the players had had their brother lynched

Tell me that you meant to say "one of the characters."  Please

Quote from: TonyLBTell me that you meant to say "one of the characters."  Please

So, sorry, yes, his character not him. That would have made the campaign unthinkable.

Sorry.
Bill

Quote from: JimBobOzThe player read over the character sheets, and roleplayed Simon coming onto the ship, saying, "Hello, I'm Thimon. Where's the thip'th boy?"

Oh he definitely missed the point. In the sort of environment someone like Simon grew up in any sign of twinkdom would've meant torture, attempts to correct the deviancy, and when all else had failed his execution.

Either that, or he just wasn't taking it at all seriously, and that will ruin a serious game.

Quote from: JimBobOzSo I'm wondering if a lot of potential racial/gender/etc issues are missed by bad roleplaying, or if the GM just doesn't bother bringing them up because they'll be ignored by the players?

I can't help but wonder if your point is somehow connected to the fact that most games seem to dehumanize characters (npcs) other than player characters esp npcs that are supposed to be adversaries for the pcs. By now it should be clear to all that I'm a Jorune fanboy, and what I like about the setting, is the way how it has a very humanistic outlook even for races who would be considered hostile to the pcs.

I mean mook rules is a fine example of the mindset that encourages a certain attitude in the way how players view the game world. I'm not sayin' that this necessarily is a bad thing, but over time/campaigns I'm sure it effects the way how players think of their opponents, no matter what the game. I suppose I'm rambling on about some sort of desensitization...

Also Hinterwelt made an interesting observation about the awkwardness of playing certain types of characters. I'm going to relate this point to -E's point about having a nuanced perspective.

In my games esp historical games not only do I do a hell of a lot of research but I think because of the social nature of rpgs  it's best that one expresses the setting in extremely humanistic terms. This often means - going back to my earlier point - that it's my job to present bigoted npcs as more than just evil doers drained of humanity.

It also means I must present the world of the characters - in the case of my CoC campaign - as more than just sinner and saint. In this particular campaign, I'm talking about the various kinds of abuse that blacks inflicted upon each other born out of desperation and their interaction with a whole  other world.

If I can create sympathy for the devil, I think I may actually have moved beyond the duality that most often is associated with hot button issues. My sig, is a good example of how I view the Hero's Journey in my campaigns. This may or may not have anything to do with the subject at hand.

Jeez, this is all very Swine -ish. Don't know what brought this on

Regards,
David R

QuoteBut, when it came to my homebrewed spy campaign set during the communist insurgency in my own country (Malaysia) and the players had to interact with our departing colonial master, things took on a more personal tone. Since all the players were playing characters based on their own ethnic group, present day issues and historical ones, between the various ethnic groups subtely filtered into the campaign.

That´s why there is next to no WWII RPGing going on in Germany.
Although the Weimar Republic time is a favorite for German CoC players, it´s frowned upon to go deeper into the thirties.

People like to play out the political tension of the pre-Nazi era, but  shirk away from playing  once the actual state-organized killing starts. It also detracts a lot from the CoC horror.

How is it with US-Civil War Roleplaying?
What´s that like for US-citizens?

Quote from: SettembriniHow is it with US-Civil War Roleplaying?
What´s that like for US-citizens?

Well, for the north it's not a problem at all...

Ok..sorry...had to say it...betraying my Virginia birthright

Quote from: SettembriniThat´s why there is next to no WWII RPGing going on in Germany.
Although the Weimar Republic time is a favorite for German CoC players, it´s frowned upon to go deeper into the thirties.

People like to play out the political tension of the pre-Nazi era, but  shirk away from playing  once the actual state-organized killing starts. It also detracts a lot from the CoC horror.

I get the impression there are some legal issues as well that have to be taken into account when publishing material for the era? I don't really understand all of that though. How easily can you use "it is just fiction" to avoid that?

QuoteHow is it with US-Civil War Roleplaying?

P&P not much. There are though effectively LARP groups that have civil war battle reenactments, sometimes very large scale reenactments. Also it is a fairly popular wargaming setting, within the niche that is wargaming. There is definately still some hard feelings among older (and some younger) folk in some parts of the country. But the war itself and the "carpetbagging" period immediately following is far out of living memory. Time does heal wounds....or at least kills the wounded.

Quote from: SettembriniThat´s why there is next to no WWII RPGing going on in Germany.
Although the Weimar Republic time is a favorite for German CoC players, it´s frowned upon to go deeper into the thirties.

People like to play out the political tension of the pre-Nazi era, but  shirk away from playing  once the actual state-organized killing starts. It also detracts a lot from the CoC horror.

How is it with US-Civil War Roleplaying?
What´s that like for US-citizens?

IME, it has not been a problem at all. RPGs that deal with the period are not very common but I have run a few (one in the west and one with southern spies) and not had too much trouble. Civil War era wargames are so common as to be flooded. I used to do a brisk business in them at my stores.

David brought up a good point about NPCs and PCs. I have seen this in a lot of games where players and GM wanted to dungeon delve and little more. A lot depends on the focus. I have been shifting a lot of my focus in the last decade of so toward out side the dungeon adventuring and having a lot of success.  I do think it is just a question of focus of the group. Do they care the Ned the Farmer will suffer if they take his only cow or is it just a supply stop on the way to the Ruins of Fabulous Wealth That No One Has Found For Some Reason?

Bill

Quote from: SettembriniHow is it with US-Civil War Roleplaying?
What´s that like for US-citizens?

I have played only one game that took place aroun the time of US Civil War and there were not any problems.

While I don't have much experience with southern culture, I do know there are some (very small group) of southerns who still fly the confederate flag and hold some resentment. Supposing you had one of those fellas in your group there could be issues, but I have yet to come across a gamer (from north or south) that was like that.

Yeah, wargaming WWII is also not a big issue here.

I know of the Civil-War wargaming abundance, so I was wondering why this isn´t a popular RPG genre.