Quote from: BalbinusDoes the dickwad DM issue never arise by the way?

I ... the phrase "dickwad DM issue" is not ringing any bells for me, and I genuinely feel uneasy about searching back through the thread looking for that phrase.  I'm afraid of what I might find.  Can you elaborate a little?

Quote from: BalbinusOn a separate note, Luke makes a lot of comments about what indie guys will bring to your con, it does still seem to me those are true of him but not of everyone.  Were there not some guys at the Forge booth who bizarrely did not run demos of their games.

Ah, that's GenCon.  GenCon is a whole different animal.  Much more of a seller's convention.  People don't do scheduled slots, for instance ... it's up to whether someone has the moxie, on the floor to convince some people to sit down and play a demo game.  And yeah, some people don't bring the special sauce in that regard.

At DexCon, etc., people coordinate to set up slots well before the con, so you always know when you have to be "on."  The point is to run your slots, and play in the slots of others.  I've never heard of a designer coming who didn't run several slots of their game.  Our two main problems are that (a) everyone would prefer to run their slots in prime-time (friday night, saturday afternoon and night) but there just isn't room, (b) nobody (except me!) wants to run their slots in the morning when they don't think they can get players, but we want continuous coverage and (c) everyone wants to play in someone else's game, and wishes that the schedule could somehow be jiggered in order to make sure that they were only running games opposite things that bored them, so that they could play in all the things they liked.

I totally see the possibility that someone could show up with a sense of entitlement and say "I'm just gonna hang, and enjoy the convention, and not contribute anything," but I haven't seen it actually happen.  People show up because contributing something is how they intend to enjoy the convention.  They want to run their games and rock out.  Our difficulties emerge from too much enthusiasm, rather than too little.

This may well change with time, but that's where we're at right now.  I do have some pretty serious worries about how things evolve down the road, but they're about ... other things.  I think they're probably outside of the scope of this thread.

Quote from: TonyLBI ... the phrase "dickwad DM issue" is not ringing any bells for me, and I genuinely feel uneasy about searching back through the thread looking for that phrase.  I'm afraid of what I might find.  Can you elaborate a little?

One page back: http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35744&postcount=63

Quote from: TonyLBI ... the phrase "dickwad DM issue" is not ringing any bells for me, and I genuinely feel uneasy about searching back through the thread looking for that phrase.  I'm afraid of what I might find.  Can you elaborate a little?

Sure, I'm afraid I coined it, though not in reference to anyone specific and certainly not in reference to Luke.

What I was getting at was the guys who, in utter ignorance of the hobby beyond DnD, design a better DnD and then turn up looking to sell it and make a fortune.  Guys who, to put it bluntly, are doomed to inevitable failure.

Dickwad is probably a touch harsh, but different fora lead to different posting habits I guess.

Anyway, my point was that those guys are just as indie as say you or Luke or anyone else.  They may not be going to set the world on fire anytime soon, and their ignorance of such newfangled games as Gurps or Runequest may mean that their touted design innovations are nothing of the kind, but they are still indie.  Should they too get these benefits?

Of course, given from what you say the benefits are not nearly as much of a burden as they sound to the uneducated ear (me in other words) the issue may not really be an issue.

Quote from: ImperatorAnd the sky is pink, and nobody buys any other game than D20: that's why we must be protected from the irrelevant and unknown hordes of Swine that threaten to destroy our hobby, though according to the Pundit, nobody knows them and nobody plays their games. So we must be protected from the Threat of the Unknown and Irrelevant Game Designers that Don't Sell Games. Or something.

Oh, my ears are burning....

Bill

Quote from: TonyLBI totally see the possibility that someone could show up with a sense of entitlement and say "I'm just gonna hang, and enjoy the convention, and not contribute anything," but I haven't seen it actually happen.  People show up because contributing something is how they intend to enjoy the convention.  They want to run their games and rock out.  Our difficulties emerge from too much enthusiasm, rather than too little.

This may well change with time, but that's where we're at right now.  I do have some pretty serious worries about how things evolve down the road, but they're about ... other things.  I think they're probably outside of the scope of this thread.

Fine, in other words for now my concern is a theoretical one that doesn't happen in practice.  That makes sense and works for me as an explanation.

Quote from: droogYou sure? I know what the point is.

Jrients is not in my experience someone who goes around looking to knock others.  I know what you mean, but I don't think that is the case here.

In the credo thread Jrients posted something along the lines that the guys we knock online are probably really cool in person.  I don't think that's the comment of someone out to misrepresent and I don't think he is.

Oh ... there is a whole bunch of designers out there with crap product and no enthusiasm?  Or possibly crap product and too much enthusiasm?

'hOkay.  I don't know that I'd personally use "dickwad" for that.  We had a few people at a nearby table to us last DexCon.  They had a game they were really excited about, with the psychic powers and the issues of privacy and memory and all that jazz.  They couldn't get players for it.  I thought that was a shame, so my friend Shawn and I insisted that they run a slot for us, which they were happy to do.  I didn't love the game, but they were awfully heart-felt, and we had a good time.  I wish more people had made the effort to give them a chance.

Those guys weren't getting a paid hotel room (I offered to let them crash with us, but they had friends nearby), but I suppose they did consume resources to the tune of some food, some attention and some real-estate.  I get your meaning.  If there were sixty such groups then (no matter how good their intentions) it would be a drain on the conventions resources.

That's rough.  It means that as this becomes more of a "thing" then conventions are going to have to exercise some judgment on who they invite.  They'll say (for instance) "Luke, you rock!  We will totally give you a hotel room and food and stuff, just come run for us!" and then they'll say "Tony, you don't make the cut.  You're nice, and all, but you just don't bring enough energy and enthusiasm to the convention to justify the cost of putting you up."  And that would make me sad, but it's totally their call.

So far I don't think the DexCon folks have had to make any such decisions.  They're pretty much happy to see anyone that we drag in.  So I think I understand the issue, but we haven't encountered it as a serious problem yet.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Balbinus.  I don't think I've had any direct contact with Luke.  We may have both posted in the same thread on rpg.net at some point.  Before yesterday if asked about him I probably would have said "Don't know the man, but I've heard good things about his game.  He put together the No Press Anthology, right?  That was pretty cool."  And that's pretty much still my opinion.

I probably over-reacted to the Forge post.  My original post in this thread was too harsh.  For that, I am sorry.  But I stand by my basic point: to put the regular con GMs in one category and yourself in another is a form of elitism that I vehemently oppose.  Luke seems to be doing that.  If not, I apologize for mischaracterizing his statement.

I wouldn't be too keen on some jackass demanding all of that when he showed up to a con I helped organize. As a matter of fact, I'd go out of my fucking way to make sure he had a corner booth next to the men's room, I'd lose his advertisements, and make sure he was so shit-ass miserable he'd never show up again.

But that's me, and probably why I don't run cons.

I do have to say, a local con invited me, I drove up, ran Year of the Zombie for them.

When I got done paying for my badges, this guy came up to me, asked if I was Timothy Willard. I asked him if he knew where my table was, and told him I was.

I got my gift from the con, for showing up.

Two bottles of Wild Turkey, and I was allowed to drink in the convention, unlike everyone else.


What a fool am I, to be grateful over a duo of Turkey's and being able to sit around with some of the staff after the doors closed. Why, they should have brought me big titted mullato babes to peel me grapes and fellate me!

Anyway, I'm cooler than Luke, because the guy at the  con knew me well enough to know that Wild Turkey was my favorite drink, and that I could hold my liquor and still run a good zombie-killing spree.

Nobody paid for my hotel rooms, nobody paid for my gas, nobody hung around my person offering things like a modern day senechal.

I got 2 bottles of Wild Turkey.


SCORE!

Quote from: TonyLBOh ... there is a whole bunch of designers out there with crap product and no enthusiasm?  Or possibly crap product and too much enthusiasm?

'hOkay.  I don't know that I'd personally use "dickwad" for that.

It was needlessly harsh actually, probably in part as I have had some lousy experiences with such things.

Those guys you mention, the psychic power guys, that's just unluckly, I was thinking more specifically not of people whose game turns out not to appeal but of those who genuinely think that not having classes is a revolutionary game element.

I hesitate to use the term, particularly here, but I was thinking about guys producing fantasy heartbreakers, in which although this is a total diversion I would not personally have included Chris Magoun's Runebearer.

You know those ads where someone says "revolutionary game, play anything you want, 800 classes, 15 new races, five magic systems, skills so you can play the character you want to" and clearly they have no idea not only of stuff like PTA or whatever but of games like Runequest or Champions.  People who have only played DnD and their entire world of reference relates to that.

Dickwad was way too harsh and I regret the term, but these designers do exist, they are indie and they are for all many hate the term rather heartbreaking.

All that said, you clarified that in practice it's just not currently an issue, so it really doesn't matter.  Hopefully it will never become one.

Quote from: jrientsI probably over-reacted to the Forge post.  My original post in this thread was too harsh.  For that, I am sorry.  But I stand by my basic point: to put the regular con GMs in one category and yourself in another is a form of elitism that I vehemently oppose.  Luke seems to be doing that.  If not, I apologize for mischaracterizing his statement.

But is very cool of you to say that I wish I always had the wisdom to do so.

After reading Tony's posts, I feel that is a question of expectations. Luke goes to Dexcon or other places where he is exceedingly well treated, and then he expects the same from every other con. I feel that is not a very realistic point of view, simply because in cons, as in every human thing, there will be very big differences from one place to other. Dexcon seems to be a superb example of organization, but I don't know if that is so common.

Saying that he "expects" it is, I think, a bit of an overstatement.  It looks, to me, like he is just saying "This is where I set the bar, in terms of which conventions I attend."

Does that mean he expects everyone to meet his bar?  No.  He just expects to not attend every convention.  Honestly, is that a big deal?

Quote from: TonyLBDoes that mean he expects everyone to meet his bar?  No.  He just expects to not attend every convention.  Honestly, is that a big deal?

I stand corrected; maybe I used the wrong word.

In any case I agree with you on the last question. Is not a big deal, and always amazes me to see people getting all furious and shit about the opinions of others through the web.

Quote from: TonyLBSaying that he "expects" it is, I think, a bit of an overstatement.  It looks, to me, like he is just saying "This is where I set the bar, in terms of which conventions I attend."

Does that mean he expects everyone to meet his bar?  No.  He just expects to not attend every convention.  Honestly, is that a big deal?

Then yes, he DOES expect it.  Unless expecting is some Jargon term.  He is saying "I expect this behavior or I will not attend the Con" no more no less.


To be honest, I was completely apathetic about the entire original post until I got to his comments about not doing any paperwork, or more specifically the part where he said he'd rip it up and toss it. The arrogance of that single line cast everything else he said in the most negative light imaginable.

Quote from: TonyLBSaying that he "expects" it is, I think, a bit of an overstatement.  It looks, to me, like he is just saying "This is where I set the bar, in terms of which conventions I attend."

Does that mean he expects everyone to meet his bar?  No.  He just expects to not attend every convention.  Honestly, is that a big deal?

What are you, Forgie damage-control?

Anyhow, I'd say it's kind of a big deal, because it is illustrative of a much larger phenomenon.

I also think it's funny because he came up with that post after nobody showed up at his game. I mean, thats what we call situational humor.