...by its cover. We know better than that. Instead, if you're like me, you'll flip to the back and look for the character sheet instead. Then go ahead and judge, if you want. Sometimes you'll be pissed because its not in the back where it belongs, but you'll find it eventually.
Post a character sheet. What does it say to you about the game?
Erois:
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/owlrune/picture-21.png)
Bubbles? Shit, more dice pools. Why are there 18 measures under Psychology? Am I allowed to just role play my character? Track my appearance? Is this a joke? 1/10 of a page for gear? What am I going to do all session, primp to raise my appearance stat until I fail a roll against my pride? What's going on? I'm cold and frightened.
The In Harm's Way: StarCluster Character Sheet, StarPool Version:
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/flyingmice/StarPoolCharsheet.png)
What does it say to you?
-clash
Well, the idea was that the poster could put up a picture and give their own summary. I didn't want to start a thread where all I do is talk about my opinions on a character sheet. But I'll give it another try...
Squares. Why is everything a square. Or a rectangle. Lots of attributes, good... what the hell? Why is every stat the first three letters of the full word except for Agility. Is Agylity a word? Anyway... check out the damage ranks. Awesome, there's going to be some guts flying for sure. Jesus fuck there's a lot of room for skills. This book is going to be 70 percent skills. I didn't like that about Alternity, but its not a deal breaker on its own. Not too much room for customization here: Could it be... Old-school... in space??
Well, the Erois sheet says "I'm pretty, but I'm going to mess with your head." Sort of like this girl I used to date.
The IHW: Starcluster sheet says "About damn time this game came out! Go buy me." Or something like that. (Hi, Clash!)
Uhhhh... I've got nuthin'.
First character sheet - I would play the hell out of this, but nobody I game with would touch it with a 10-foot pole.
Second sheet - Supplement 12: Forms and Charts.
I've already posted E.o.N, but for those who hadn't seen it: (Thumbnails to keep thread from low load times)
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/4530/eonsheetfinal.th.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/i/eonsheetfinal.jpg/)
Vast Frontiers
(http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1633/vastfrontierspcsheet.th.jpg) (http://img175.imageshack.us/i/vastfrontierspcsheet.jpg/)
Both the above sheets were designed by me.
Here is one designed for me, by the kindness of William Corrie for my Derelict Delvers Game
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4647/ddcharsheet2.th.jpg) (http://img52.imageshack.us/i/ddcharsheet2.jpg/)
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/8218/ddcharsheet3copy.th.png) (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/ddcharsheet3copy.png/)
(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/owlrune/samwhiskers.jpg)
What the hell is this? What kind of a sick person did this to D&D? And why is it always mice that get to play hero? Or turtles. I want to tear my eyes away from it, but I can't. Maybe if I could get the damn mouse out of there...
Character sheets are one of the first things I look at in considering a game. I won't even bother to read a free game if the character sheet is too distasteful.
Eoris - Way to twee, this game is going to be overwrought
IHW - standard ability/skill/edge breakdown. Very orthogonal - the rules are likely going to be dry but I can deal with that as that was the norm for wargames.
Silverloin's: Simple game, strong sense of style. The first one has too strong of a background which will hide the stats. Delvers looks like it's attempting new oldschool - fairly basic but it doesn't grab me. The exclamation marks and orientation bother me.
mouse - standard old school D&D in furry version. I wouldn't run it as it doesn't have much over all the other old school games that I play but I'd play it if someone else was running.
Quote from: Nicephorus;363010Silverloin's: Simple game, strong sense of style. The first one has too strong of a background which will hide the stats. Delvers looks like it's attempting new oldschool - fairly basic but it doesn't grab me. The exclamation marks and orientation bother me.
Any suggestions? Lightening the background? Moving it? Minimizing it?
Quote from: winkingbishop;363006(http://i646.photobucket.com/albums/uu181/owlrune/samwhiskers.jpg)
That's awesome!
Seanchai
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/ffcssm.jpg) (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/ffcs.jpg)
Finally! A handy reference chart on the sheet!
Quote from: flyingmice;362983The In Harm's Way: StarCluster Character Sheet, StarPool Version:
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/flyingmice/StarPoolCharsheet.png)
What does it say to you?
-clash
I'm functional not sexy.
Edit: What J said too.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: flyingmice;362983What does it say to you?
-clash
It says to me that someone is not very good at layout. For God's sake, at least get the boxes lined up! ;)
Overall, the piece looks like something assembled in MS Paint for a free homebrew RPG. It reminds me of the kind of stuff I used to find on the internet in the 90s, in the heady days before POD and RPGnow ruined everything by making people think they could charge for this stuff, the kind of game with some neat ideas but that's obviously the result of one guy trying to hack it together himself.
Quote from: J Arcane;363023It says to me that someone is not very good at layout. For God's sake, at least get the boxes lined up! ;)
Overall, the piece looks like something assembled in MS Paint for a free homebrew RPG. It reminds me of the kind of stuff I used to find on the internet in the 90s, in the heady days before POD and RPGnow ruined everything by making people think they could charge for this stuff, the kind of game with some neat ideas but that's obviously the result of one guy trying to hack it together himself.
The winner! Nailed it to the doorpost, Mr. Luther.
-clash
flyingmice,
I'll not focus on the blindingly obvious parts.
Rank, Service, the game's name: Military? Agents of some other kind?
Honor and Practicality are, what, derived from Luck in some way? So "Luck" might mean more than just luck, in this setting. Also, it strikes me that dishonour and impracticality could be matters of concern.
And yes, the rest seems pretty straightforward. It involves space travel (right?!), uses stats \ skills (many) \ traits/edges, Psi is deplete-refresh, wound states instead of just HP, etc.
Anyway, glancing at the character sheet is the first step I take in assessing new RPGs, given the chance. Mightn't always be the best way, but it's what I do.
Quote from: winkingbishop;363006[snip image of Tony DiTerlizzi's AD&D mouse sheet]
Now that's really funny. When reading the OP
this sheet came to my mind and I was almost heading into Google mode to search for it.
QuoteWhat the hell is this? What kind of a sick person did this to D&D? And why is it always mice that get to play hero? Or turtles. I want to tear my eyes away from it, but I can't. Maybe if I could get the damn mouse out of there...
Planescape artist Tony DiTerlizzi (today more known for his
Spiderwick Chronicles) did a whole series of sheets like that. Regular AD&D characters: human fighter, elven thief, halfling cleric, etc.
All boxes on the front and the back of the sheets had customized, class-fitting icons (e.g., thief tools, grimoire).
Particularly striking was that he chose to not show archetypal poses and Elmore/Easley-like "generic" faces but that these characters had ... well,
character. They were clearly not heroes (as implied by D&D3/D&D4/Dragon Age illustrations) but
first level adventurers, whether they were a female human thief or a male, aged, grizzled human fighter.
DiTerlizzi collected the sheets in 2 folders/envelopes that he sold at his booth at the Gen Con art show (in 1998 or 1999) - and at other conventions, I guess.
The mouse sheet was kind of a bonus he published on his website much later.
An elaborate Chinese Checkers board for the first sheet posted.
Quote from: flyingmice;362983The In Harm's Way: StarCluster Character Sheet, StarPool Version:
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/flyingmice/StarPoolCharsheet.png)
What does it say to you?
1000 hours in MS-PAINT
or some combo game of Breakout and Tetris. Mind it is an improvement from earlier sheets Clash.
Someone should post sheets from Burning Wheel (which I kinda like but they do have a lot to track!) and that game that shares the same as a SPI (?) game but is newer. Universe? The setting said Star Frontiers, the rules said Aftermath.
Oh and the Aftermath Tax Form, I mean character sheet. ;)
Like the Tony DiTerlizzi mouse sheet, I thought it was for Mouse Guard at first. Wouldn't mind seeing the others, heck I'd pay for pdfs or printed.
Quote from: flyingmice;362983The In Harm's Way: StarCluster Character Sheet, StarPool Version:
(http://i518.photobucket.com/albums/u341/flyingmice/StarPoolCharsheet.png)
What does it say to you?
To me, it says "This better have a damn awesome setting, because the system looks like yet another stat-plus-skill job".
This may actually be an extremely useful thread, for certain designers.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;363098Planescape artist Tony DiTerlizzi (today more known for his Spiderwick Chronicles) did a whole series of sheets like that. Regular AD&D characters: human fighter, elven thief, halfling cleric, etc.
All boxes on the front and the back of the sheets had customized, class-fitting icons (e.g., thief tools, grimoire).
Thanks for the information. I know I was hard on the mouse, but its actually a really stunning character sheet. It has flavor to spare!
Huh I thought the mouse one was from the new Castles and Crusades thing.
http://www.trolllord.com/siege/8901.html
Quote from: Silverlion;363011Any suggestions? Lightening the background? Moving it? Minimizing it?
I really like the graphic, I think ust a bit lighter would work so the hexes stand out more, maybe a tad smaller as well. It's taking up a big chunk of sheet that could be used for other things.
The orientation of text on the DD sheet throws me with some horizontal and some not. Half as much tilt might achieve the same impression without being as jarring.
Quote from: flyingmice;362983What does it say to you?
"Guns. Lots of guns."
Seriously, that's a lot of space for weapons. Not that that's a bad thing.
Quote from: flyingmice;362983The In Harm's Way: StarCluster Character Sheet, StarPool Version:
What does it say to you?
-clash
A streamllined game. It says to me there will be a great focus on compact useful rules. No pretense just good gaming. That's my gestalt impression.
Graphically this can use a lot of help. The good news is the stuff on the sheet is really pretty minimal just a lot of space for it. I can probably whip up something custom to what I like and graphically pleasing (to me) in MSWord or CorelDraw in half an hour.
Compare this to my impression of the OP, the Erois sheet.
Graphically beautiful. But over a dozen psycological traits and those matrix boxes below for appearance and emotional state. I sense that this will be presented as deep emotinal/human realtionship oriented game. The details seem to be presented as crunch, but my impression is they are more a crutch. I doubt over a dozen traits and a complex matrix is needed to acheive the ends here, I suspect the crunch (if present and all the stuff is just not a way to paint a picture with numbers, numbers that mean little in the game) if interrelated at all will devolve into hand waving.
Quote from: Silverlion;363011Any suggestions? Lightening the background? Moving it? Minimizing it?
On the first one I feel it is too monochromatic and the background elements too strong. I'd add some trasnparency to the background elements except maybe the central biological hazard symbol. If you could add some highlighting to make the biohazard symbol seem 3D or pop that would be good. I'd make the game text and hexagons bold black so you can find it against the red. The black is a strong dark color that should not conflict with the feel.
This may be way off, but have you considered a little neon orange? It might add an infected feel and could add something.
Make some other sheet in this game mostly blue so at least you suck on my printer cartridge equally. :)
On the Vast Frontiers, I think this is excellent as is. I get the strong feel of two card hands, a real old west wiskey and beer feel. I like that.
The Delvers one, I don't know what is off about this for me. Maybe it is the rectilinear combined with the tilted fonts. The large areas of white and little delination with a few logos here and there. I think maybe a little light gray background around the edges or a very faint grey watermark of a derelict or something could really pull it together.
Quote from: Jamfke;363019(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/ffcssm.jpg) (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/ffcs.jpg)
Finally! A handy reference chart on the sheet!
No love for 4C? Oh well, I suppose a form-fillable version wouldn't help either eh?
Quote from: Jamfke;363253No love for 4C? Oh well, I suppose a form-fillable version wouldn't help either eh?
I like that character sheet. Too bad I dislike games that use percentile mechanics.
Quote from: Jamfke;363253No love for 4C? Oh well, I suppose a form-fillable version wouldn't help either eh?
Bearing in mind its been close to two decades since my last exposure to the system...it looks functional. Smart, even, for having the results table on there. But why the yellow? I mean, I get the four-color-supers thing but...there are three more colors. That aren't yellow :D
Quote from: winkingbishop;363257Bearing in mind its been close to two decades since my last exposure to the system...it looks functional. Smart, even, for having the results table on there. But why the yellow? I mean, I get the four-color-supers thing but...there are three more colors. That aren't yellow :D
LOL
I suppose I chose it due to it being the highest result color. Suppose I could change it to red or blue though.
Quote from: Jamfke;363258LOL
I suppose I chose it due to it being the highest result color. Suppose I could change it to red or blue though.
I'd stick with a colour that's easy to see what is written beneath, if i were you -
If you need a highlighting colour, at all.
Quote from: One Horse Town;363259I'd stick with a colour that's easy to see what is written beneath, if i were you - If you need a highlighting colour, at all.
True enough, you need to be able to read it. But there
are options...
(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk1/biffbampowcomics/thanksfortheadd.jpg)
And, okay, I admit it. I hate yellow.
Quote from: winkingbishop;363260I hate yellow.
*looks at winkingbishop's avatar and sig*
I see... :hmm:
Here it is in Cyan:
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/cyansm.jpg) (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/cyanmed.jpg)
Better? Worse?
Here it is with a few of the lines filled in (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/jamfke/Game%20Stuff/sample.jpg). Should I go with a different font for the form, or is Arial decent enough?
Quote from: Jamfke;363253No love for 4C? Oh well, I suppose a form-fillable version wouldn't help either eh?
My favorite so far, still working down the thread.
I absolutely love games where the oft used mechanics fit on the character sheet. I put them on mine even though the sheets would be much simpler if absent. It's like a rule book + sheet in one.
I also think the font layout and color scheme fit well with a superhero theme. I'm guessing 4C is a supers game IIRC. Looking at the stats it seems to have all the bases covered, in a succinct way, for a supers game. This sheet has sold me on looking into this game. Although I have a low interest in supers games at the moment.
I like the yellow.
Quote from: Xanther;363337My favorite so far, still working down the thread.
I absolutely love games where the oft used mechanics fit on the character sheet. I put them on mine even though the sheets would be much simpler if absent. It's like a rule book + sheet in one.
I also think the font layout and color scheme fit well with a superhero theme. I'm guessing 4C is a supers game IIRC. Looking at the stats it seems to have all the bases covered, in a succinct way, for a supers game. This sheet has sold me on looking into this game. Although I have a low interest in supers games at the moment.
I like the yellow.
Thanks!
4C is based on the Marvel Superheroes RPG from the 80s, therefore, it does supers adequately - enough. It's really more of a "toolkit" for folks to create their own games, and supplements, that
can be used with the old Marvel game, with a little tweaking. But, I also believe that it can handle just about any genre you throw at it, with a little tweaking.
Check out the rules at the Year of Living Free Wiki (http://www.4c4ever.com/viewforum.php?f=18), they're free. You can also find the original Marvel rules online too. Check this site out (http://www.classicmarvelforever.com/)for more about that!
Quote from: Benoist;363263*looks at winkingbishop's avatar and sig*
I see... :hmm:
I knew someone was going to bring that up. That piece is gold, not yellow. Clearly.
Yeah, I'm full of shit. And Jamfke, I do like the cyan. They're both totally functional, by the way.
Quote from: winkingbishop;363383I knew someone was going to bring that up. That piece is gold, not yellow. Clearly.
Yeah, I'm full of shit. And Jamfke, I do like the cyan. They're both totally functional, by the way.
LOL Love it. Good come-back.
The cyan one is less glaring on the eyes. I'd stick with it.
Cyan for the win!
Gotta love non-scientific polls. Even if there isn't a poll!
Thanks folks.
Here's the first page of the Advanced HackMaster Character Sheet. (even though the logo still reads "HackMaster Basic"
I should point out it's only 5.5 x 8.5 inches. The full character sheet is set up as two sided 8.5 x 11 landscape and is folded in half to form a booklet.
Still being playtested/evolving but players are reporting they've been digging the fact it has a smaller foot print and the fact they can tuck cheat sheets and specialty cards (such as spell books) inside. I print them out on card stock so they're fairly rugged.
I designed it in color under the assumption most gamers have access to a color printer. But a greyscale verison/b&w version will be made available when the AHM Player Handbook comes out.
Say, that Hackmaster Advanced sheet is pretty!
Quote from: Danger;363558Say, that Hackmaster Advanced sheet is pretty!
imma agree here. With that much on the sheet, you'd think it would be all too easy to just get lost in the various stats, blocks and widgets. But the creator did a great job categorizing things.
Kinda reminds me of one of those subject "cheat sheets" you stuck in your binder for school, the ones for English, Algebra, etc. To me that means that it's laid out in a logical, and easy to read manner. Nicely done!
I really like the HAZMAT type sign in the upper corner for combat stats!
Thanks. I *was* inspired by the HAZMAT symbol. ;)
Was stuck in traffic in Chicago behind a semi/trailer and found myself staring at one for about 45 minutes while crawling home.
At some point I realized it was the solution I'd been looking for.
I'd been working on the new character sheet for a few weeks and struggling with the combat related data and how to deal with it.
The Hackmaster sheeet looks like a game that I'd hesitate to run - it takes a third of a page to describe how good a character is with one weapon.
But, given the game, the sheet is awesome. The thick lines group things well. the alternating colors/shades make it much easier to follow along the rows. For the weapon, I like the rows to show what's going into the calculation but the small block of totals that would get used the most in actual play. The hazmat symbol also seems to have color codings that match info below.
Quote from: Nicephorus;364272The Hackmaster sheeet looks like a game that I'd hesitate to run - it takes a third of a page to describe how good a character is with one weapon.
No you just need TWO numbers -- the ones listed in the HAZMAT to know how good you are at a weapon. (attack and damage).
That weapon box includes the history/steps in chargen that figure into those final numbers. You really don't need to refer it again until you level up or spend more building points improving your character.
The game itself is fairly simple. No to-hit charts or AC classes or any of that. You can run combat without any books/screen whatsoever.
But hey the name of the thread is 'don't judge a book by its cover'. I agree the sheet can seem daunting to anyone who hasn't rolled up a character. But it's really straight forward.
I can usually have a player up and running in 10 t 16 minutes. Just point to the HAZMAT basically and explain what the numbers are for and take it from there.
(Points at the Hackmaster sheet)
I like the little, fiddly "check," boxes; they remind me of my beloved 2nd ed. AD&D years (and by default, the TSR character sheets).