I'm on the fence about this one.

Pros:

• I love the theme (lost shrines, standing stones, ley lines, fairy roads, Wood Gods, fairy nobles, etc.)
• Price point is good ($95 for three hardcovers)
• Cover art and layout look amazing
• Love the character classes (cleric, enchanter, fighter, friar, hunter, knight, magician, minstrel, and thief)
• Ascending AC
• Race + Class

Cons:

• Not sure about some of the races (goat-headed? fungus-riddled? bat-faced?)
• A lot of mushroom-related things (personal quirk. Not a mushroom fan.)
• X in 6 skill system
• Might be too whimsical

Cons are mostly minor. Leaning towards yes, but I need to check the 76-page preview first. More on that later.

Update: It just broke a million dollars in 5 days.  A few months ago some people were suggesting that the emergence of Shadowdark had somehow invalidated or undermined OSE's status in the OSR.  But that is apparently not the case, and judging from the KS comments, a lot of folks have invested in both.  What this might also be is an indication of people's dissatisfaction with WOTC as indie games keep doing big business.  And unlike, say, "Coyote & Crow," Gavin Norman has a proven track record of delivering quality products.

Quote from: Persimmon on August 14, 2023, 10:39:03 AM
Gavin Norman has a proven track record of delivering products.

That's all that matters, honestly. Kevin Crawford and him are the only people using KS that actually seem to be reliable about producing anything in a timely manner. While I back Troll Lords stuff as I collect C&C, I have no confidence in getting any of those books anytime soon and am pleasantly surprised when they finally show up. But even that's nothing compared to stuff like Dwimmermount and Far West.

Quote from: Brad on August 14, 2023, 10:43:52 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on August 14, 2023, 10:39:03 AM
Gavin Norman has a proven track record of delivering products.

That's all that matters, honestly. Kevin Crawford and him are the only people using KS that actually seem to be reliable about producing anything in a timely manner. While I back Troll Lords stuff as I collect C&C, I have no confidence in getting any of those books anytime soon and am pleasantly surprised when they finally show up. But even that's nothing compared to stuff like Dwimmermount and Far West.

Greg Gillespie usually delivers on time from my experience as well.  But yeah, I love C&C as a system and the Troll Lords are good guys, but timely they are not and part of the problem seems to be that they always have too many things going on simultaneously.  So everything ends up getting delayed.  But in my experience no one is as bad as Sandy Peterson.  He admits starting new project to fund old ones and still asks people for extra money to pay shippers to get product off the pallets.

Quote from: Brad on August 14, 2023, 10:43:52 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on August 14, 2023, 10:39:03 AM
Gavin Norman has a proven track record of delivering products.

That's all that matters, honestly. Kevin Crawford and him are the only people using KS that actually seem to be reliable about producing anything in a timely manner. While I back Troll Lords stuff as I collect C&C, I have no confidence in getting any of those books anytime soon and am pleasantly surprised when they finally show up. But even that's nothing compared to stuff like Dwimmermount and Far West.

I got my Hyperborea stuff in a timely matter. So I"d North Wind Adventures to that list too.

Quote from: Scooter on August 11, 2023, 10:47:17 AM
If it is done where are the PDFs?

They're on my hard drive. Patreon backers have had access and input on the PDFs over the last couple of years. They are mostly done. The layout, pages, rules and content are all there with TODOs in some of the text areas. I think another year for Gavin to obsess over the layout and finish text is a realistic schedule. Though no shade to anyone who wants to just wait for the finished product.

Quote from: Lynn on August 10, 2023, 01:45:18 AM
My interest dropped considerably after this changed from an OSE setting to its own game system.

The OGL shake up ended up with a lot of designers wanting to shift more away from WoTC material and that ended up turning Dolemwood into a little more of its own thing. Also, OSE has sort of become a very popular "newbie" OSR game and there are elements of that system which get the same questions over and over again. So Dolemwood is also intended to be a bit more newbie friendly, clearer on some rules, and emphasizes certain OSR game concepts better for people who may be coming from 5E.

Quote from: Dracones on August 14, 2023, 11:40:20 AM
The OGL shake up ended up with a lot of designers wanting to shift more away from WoTC material and that ended up turning Dolemwood into a little more of its own thing. Also, OSE has sort of become a very popular "newbie" OSR game and there are elements of that system which get the same questions over and over again. So Dolemwood is also intended to be a bit more newbie friendly, clearer on some rules, and emphasizes certain OSR game concepts better for people who may be coming from 5E.

But not all of their customer base.

I am sure that many that heard about the forthcoming Dolmenwood setting had that in mind as an OSE setting and, it partially drove some to purchase OSE (directly or, in the recent OSE Kickstarter). Changing Dolmenwood to its own thing breaks compatibility with OSE, and its asking OSE purchasers to go out and buy yet another rule set that they don't want and don't need.

Quote from: Lynn on August 14, 2023, 12:12:12 PM
But not all of their customer base.

I am sure that many that heard about the forthcoming Dolmenwood setting had that in mind as an OSE setting and, it partially drove some to purchase OSE (directly or, in the recent OSE Kickstarter). Changing Dolmenwood to its own thing breaks compatibility with OSE, and its asking OSE purchasers to go out and buy yet another rule set that they don't want and don't need.

Does this really matter to you, though? I am sure anyone on this board could use Dolmenwood in any OSR-style system with absolutely zero brain power expended. I certainly do not need yet-another slightly different rules-set, but functionally it's irrelevant in play. I think the off-beat fae stuff will draw in some newbies who might not GAF about regular old D&D, which means more players who are not buying WotC stuff. If this is a war, you gotta do whatever it takes to win. Same with the ascending AC argument. Yeah, it doesn't have an attack chart, just a simple BAB bonus. And? The dude is producing a product that will actually exist and people can buy and play in an OSR-style, which is a win for anyone who likes real RPGs. Getting hung up about ascending AC when the 800 pound gorilla already uses it and everyone with any sort of exposure to modern D&D already knows how it works is just a dumb hill to die on.

This isn't a personal attack since I actually am somewhat annoyed at the direction this is taking, too, but in the bigger picture, this is ultimately a win for us. The more people we can get off the WotC bandwagon and playing real RPGs, the more the hobby will thrive. I consider Dolmenwood nothing more than a gateway drug to AD&D.

+1 for North Wind Adventures.  Dolmenwood looks interesting; glad it's seeing this success.

Quote from: Brad on August 14, 2023, 12:35:47 PM

Quote from: Lynn on August 14, 2023, 12:12:12 PM
But not all of their customer base. I am sure that many that heard about the forthcoming Dolmenwood setting had that in mind as an OSE setting and, it partially drove some to purchase OSE (directly or, in the recent OSE Kickstarter). Changing Dolmenwood to its own thing breaks compatibility with OSE, and its asking OSE purchasers to go out and buy yet another rule set that they don't want and don't need.

Does this really matter to you, though? I am sure anyone on this board could use Dolmenwood in any OSR-style system with absolutely zero brain power expended. I certainly do not need yet-another slightly different rules-set, but functionally it's irrelevant in play.

Yes, it does.

A new rules set is just stuff I don't want or need or want to pay for, even though I can afford it.

On the technical side as a GM, sure, it isn't hard. But just like my previous point, I don't want to have to do that. If there are stat blocks in the campaign book, I want OSE stat blocks, for the purposes of convenience.

I don't have any problem with OSR books that present themselves as OSR products.  I have picked up quite a few of those.

This decision to turn it into a game with a modified engine is clearly a business decision to sell more. I totally get that. It is however, a disservice to those that bought OSE with the notion that a campaign setting for OSE was on its way.

Quote from: Persimmon on August 14, 2023, 10:39:03 AM
Update: It just broke a million dollars in 5 days.  A few months ago some people were suggesting that the emergence of Shadowdark had somehow invalidated or undermined OSE's status in the OSR.  But that is apparently not the case, and judging from the KS comments, a lot of folks have invested in both.  What this might also be is an indication of people's dissatisfaction with WOTC as indie games keep doing big business.  And unlike, say, "Coyote & Crow," Gavin Norman has a proven track record of delivering quality products.

It is good that people are looking to branch out from the Wotzi umbrella. Even if they are largely clones.

I would also take this as a sign that in general people want complete games (Rules+Setting).

OSE is nice and all, but it is a B/X rules reference that relied largely on pre-existing TSR era modules and settings...

Quote from: Brad on August 14, 2023, 12:35:47 PM
...
This isn't a personal attack since I actually am somewhat annoyed at the direction this is taking, too, but in the bigger picture, this is ultimately a win for us. The more people we can get off the WotC bandwagon and playing real RPGs, the more the hobby will thrive. I consider Dolmenwood nothing more than a gateway drug to AD&D.

^This^

Whatever grumbling people have about ascending AC and the integrated game & setting - ultimately the direction taken with Dolemwood was the right one for the publisher, and the majority of the audience has apparently agreed.

Hopefully the publisher follows up with support to grow the games player network.

Am I the only one who thinks the basic book covers look better than the limited edition designs?
Comparison of the monster book (basic on left, limited on right)

The rules changes for Dolmenwood vs OSE are summarized here. They are 90%+ compatible with OSE and what little requires conversion can be done on the fly in your head. They are either quality of life changes or simplifications/clarifications specifically targeted at new players/GMs.

https://necroticgnome.com/blogs/news/dolmenwood-core-rules

Quote
Core Rules: Mechanical Changes
Just one. Removing descending Armour Class / THAC0 / the attack matrix.

Reason: Ascending AC is a bit easier for complete newcomers to understand, is much easier to explain, and is already familiar to the vast majority of gamers (via D&D 3, 4, 5 and their associated ecosystems). The standard OSE dual format ("AC 8 [11]") looks arcane and confusing for new players.

Core Rules: Presentation Changes
Adventuring Skills
There are a bunch of X-in-6 based skills common to all character classes hidden away in B/X (e.g. listening at doors, searching for traps, the surprise roll, etc). Dolmenwood will present these as a skill system, rather than as ad hoc rolls. There will be 3 skills: Listen, Search, Survival. The underlying mechanic for these checks remains the same (i.e. X-in-6 chance of success, with certain races / classes getting an improved chance of success).

Reason: Explaining this "hidden skills system" explicitly makes it easier to understand and apply.

Saving Throw Categories
Dolmenwood will use slightly different names for the 5 save categories: Doom, Ray, Hold, Blast, Spell. The mechanic for rolling saves remains the same.

Doom: Effects that instantly kill or inflict ongoing physical malignities—for example, poison, disease, death magic.
Ray: Rapidly moving, directional effects that can be dodged—for example, energy rays, magic wands.
Hold: Effects that hinder or prevent movement—for example, paralysis, petrification, falling rocks that may crush or pin characters.
Blast: Lethal energy effects that fill a wide area—for example, wyrm breath, explosions.
Spell: Potent, directly targeted effects—for example, arcane or holy spells, fairy glamours, magic staves or scrolls.
Reason: This makes the save categories more broadly applicable (e.g. Ray instead of Magic Wand, Blast instead of Breath Attack), which makes them easier to understand and apply.

Movement Rates
Are noted in a simplified format: "Speed 40", rather than "MR 120' (40')"

Reason: Exploration speed (the "120'" in the example) rarely matters for monsters. It's just noise to include it in all stat blocks.

Hit Dice
Monster Hit Dice are being reframed as monster Level (to match PC level).

Reason: Hit Dice is an odd term that means pretty much the same as another term that already exists: level. Melding the two terms makes the game easier to understand.

Character Creation: Changes
Separate Race + Class
The race + class character creation method is the default, with race-as-class options presented in the appendix. Note that the method of character creation doesn't affect the core game rules in any way. A race-as-class Halfling created using the B/X rules can adventure alongside a race + class Grimalkin Hunter without issue.

Reason: OSE presents two methods of character creation: one based on B/X, the other based on AD&D. The two different methods make sense to people versed in D&D history, but are a really common point of confusion for newcomers. Zoning in on just a single method makes the game much easier to understand. The vast majority of players are already familiar with the race + class option, making it the obvious choice.

Standard Classes
Dolmenwood will include the standard cleric, fighter, thief, and magic-user  classes. (In addition to the following Dolmenwood-specific classes: enchanter, friar, hunter, knight, minstrel. A total of 9 classes.) Each of the standard classes will have some minor tweaks, tying it in with the setting and/or adding some common house rules. As noted above for races, a standard B/X thief will be able to adventure alongside a Dolmenwood thief without issue, should players wish.

Cleric: Can use any type of weapon, but only holy magic weapons. Chooses to be a member of one of 3 Dolmenwood holy orders, each granting a small class ability.
Fighter: Gain a combat talent every 4 levels, from level 2.
Magic-user: Use the AD&D style spell book rules (see OSE Advanced Fantasy). Roll or choose from a list of starting spell books. Gain detect magic as an X-in-6 class skill (each attempt takes 1 turn).
Thief: Use X-in-6 skills across the board, unified with the general adventuring skills framework. Optional point buy system for skill improvement.
Reason: Cleaning things up a bit, better tying things in with the setting, and adding a few extra abilities to classes that are commonly house ruled.

Referee-Facing Stuff
Monster #Appearing
Will be listed in a simplified format. (The exact format isn't yet finalised.)

Reason: The B/X #Appearing format is very weird and confusing.

Treasure Types
These will be replaced by a new system of letter codes and treasure tables separately listing Coins, Riches (gems, jewellery, art objects), and Magic. Each list will be sorted in order of average value, making it easy to choose a treasure type by looking down the list. (There'll be a 1:1 conversion guide from the B/X treasure types, for those who need it.)

Reason: The B/X treasure types don't follow any kind of pattern, making them difficult to understand and use.

Monster Tags
Monsters will be listed with "tags" noting their size (small, medium, large), creature type (fairy, undead, animal, etc), and intelligence (mindless, animal, low, etc).

Reason: This simple addition clarifies a lot of other rules, for example which monsters count as "larger than human-sized" for the sake of small characters gaining an AC bonus.

Equipment
There'll be a bunch of tiny changes and additions here and there, such as:

Slow weapons: Removing this rule as virtually no one uses it.
Rations: Stating how long rations of each type remain fresh.
Crossbows: Making them armour piercing (+2 to attack vs metal armour), to counteract their Reload downside.
Battle axes: Now one-handed.
Silver: Specifying the cost of making silver weapons of any kind (i.e. not just daggers and arrows).
Reason: Adding useful little details, clearing up minor rules.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 14, 2023, 03:34:48 PM
Am I the only one who thinks the basic book covers look better than the limited edition designs?
Comparison of the monster book (basic on left, limited on right)

You're not alone. I think the original looks clean and evocative, while the LE looks cluttered, and covers the art. Definitely gilding the lily.

Jon Britton is hard-selling this setting/game to me:

https://youtu.be/TYAOz1ShB6w

He goes through a few of the monsters, so SPOILERS