Alignment in my experience is a useless label at best, a source of needless irritation at worst, and a pointless distraction most of the time. People don't RP better just because they have something written down in their character sheet and the existence of "evil" alignment is a constant reminder for some players to play their characters like stupid assholes that disrupt the game. Even stuff like defining different types of virtues or vices, or personality traits or motivations doesn't necessarily make things better, though, those at least might give players some ideas about what their characters might be like or strive to accomplish.

The best way to handle alignment is to ignore that it even exists and never bring it up. Spells like "Protection from Evil" simply protect you from demons, undead creatures or similar beings, and other alignment related stuff simply doesn't exist.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 20, 2023, 01:39:44 PM
Alignment in my experience is a useless label at best, a source of needless irritation at worst, and a pointless distraction most of the time. People don't RP better just because they have something written down in their character sheet and the existence of "evil" alignment is a constant reminder for some players to play their characters like stupid assholes that disrupt the game.
Even stuff like defining different types of virtues or vices, or personality traits or motivations doesn't necessarily make things better, though, those at least might give players some ideas about what their characters might be like or strive to accomplish...

This is why I don't like the Law/Chaos Alignment paradigm.

Good vs. Evil is much better.

The Helveczia RPG has one of the best way to do "Alignment" that I've ever seen:




With examples of how to measure the PC's actions:


The PC's "alignment" goes up or down on a 1-21 scale depending on their actions each session.

IMO Helveczia doesn't go far enough on the effects of being at the three different levels on the scale.

I'd do Wicked - sinner - Righteous. With evil and Holy being reserved for those that go off the scale on either end.

You could have a field day having everything from spells, to healing, to saves being effected by a PC's 'alignment' under this system.

i.e. The Righteous and Holy having enhanced effects against Wicked or Evil people and monsters, etc.

This would have a effect on Players as they will have constant practical consequences in play for their PC's in-game choices.

I think this concept on how to do 'alignment' could be re-skinned as a way to enhance setting flavor in any D&D style fantasy rpg.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 24, 2023, 07:46:03 PM
The Helveczia RPG has one of the best way to do "Alignment" that I've ever seen:

Quote from: Jaeger on April 24, 2023, 07:46:03 PM
You could have a field day having everything from spells, to healing, to saves being effected by a PC's 'alignment' under this system.

i.e. The Righteous and Holy having enhanced effects against Wicked or Evil people and monsters, etc.

This would have a effect on Players as they will have constant practical consequences in play for their PC's in-game choices.

I think this concept on how to do 'alignment' could be re-skinned as a way to enhance setting flavor in any D&D style fantasy rpg.

Have you actually played with these? When I briefly tried the Karma rules in Marvel Superheroes, it quickly became clear that point totals had nothing to do with actually being good. It instead encouraged following the letter of the law and spamming the easiest point-gaining options. I had the same view of the honor rules in Oriental Adventures, though we never actually used them.

Strange that they chose Prudentius' list rather than the more common virtues of Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, Justice, Faith, Hope and Charity.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2023, 01:47:04 AM
Strange that they chose Prudentius' list rather than the more common virtues of Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, Justice, Faith, Hope and Charity.

Actually, that's Pope Gregory I's revised AD 590 list and they're known as the Capital Virtues as they opposed the seven Capital (i.e. Deadly) Sins.

Prudentius' list was Chastity/Lust, Faith/Idolatry, Good Works/Greed, Concord/Discord, Sobriety/Indulgence, Patience/Wrath, and Humility/Pride.

Gregory's revised list was Chastity/Lust, Diligence/Sloth, Charity/Greed, Kindness/Envy, Temperance/Gluttony, Patience/Wrath, and Humilith/Pride.

Regardless, the reason the game used the capital virtues is because, unlike the Cardinal+Theological virtues, the capital ones are directly opposed by sin. Ergo, it functions as a 7-axis alignment system of sorts.

I use the current alignment system, but Law vs Chaos map to Deontology vs Utilitarianism and good and evil become measures of empathy/altruistic vs selfishness/egocentricity.  A player who is Lawful Good is striving to follow their chosen rules and trying to make the world better versus a Lawful Evil character who uses the rules to impose their will or gain profits.  I think this is similar to boyscout vs asshole, which I like alot and maybe easier to explain to players rather than altruism vs egocentric.

A knight donating the majority of his treasure from an adventure to the local orphanage is LG.  That same knight deciding to spend his treasure on luxuries for himself might be LE.  If the character is LG on his sheet then failing to tithe or help the poor would create anxiety or moral conflict.

I don't see this as forced RP rather it's a minor plot hook for the player or the GM to hang a story line.  Sir Jollybritches fails to donate his sack of loot to the orphans.  He could get a visit from the order asking him WTH? or he could upset with himself and need to take a redemption quest.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 25, 2023, 07:46:38 AMPrudentius' list was Chastity/Lust, Faith/Idolatry, Good Works/Greed, Concord/Discord, Sobriety/Indulgence, Patience/Wrath, and Humility/Pride.

Gregory's revised list was Chastity/Lust, Diligence/Sloth, Charity/Greed, Kindness/Envy, Temperance/Gluttony, Patience/Wrath, and Humilith/Pride.

Those lists look almost exactly like the lists for Personality Traits from the game Pendragon. But in that game, they were presented non-judgmentally, and different religions prized different ideals. For example, Christianity prized: Chaste, Modest, Forgiving, Merciful, and Temperate whereas Wotanism prized: Generous, Proud, Worldly, Indulgent, and Reckless. Pendragon's Pious/Worldly would probably be closest to Faith/Idolotry split but, as before, isn't presented as a good/bad thing either way.

This would be a good system to highlight the differences between various racial or fantasy god's worldviews. The downside, of course, is that it is rather tedious to track.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on April 25, 2023, 12:07:49 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 25, 2023, 07:46:38 AMPrudentius' list was Chastity/Lust, Faith/Idolatry, Good Works/Greed, Concord/Discord, Sobriety/Indulgence, Patience/Wrath, and Humility/Pride.

Gregory's revised list was Chastity/Lust, Diligence/Sloth, Charity/Greed, Kindness/Envy, Temperance/Gluttony, Patience/Wrath, and Humilith/Pride.

Those lists look almost exactly like the lists for Personality Traits from the game Pendragon. But in that game, they were presented non-judgmentally, and different religions prized different ideals. For example, Christianity prized: Chaste, Modest, Forgiving, Merciful, and Temperate whereas Wotanism prized: Generous, Proud, Worldly, Indulgent, and Reckless. Pendragon's Pious/Worldly would probably be closest to Faith/Idolotry split but, as before, isn't presented as a good/bad thing either way.

This would be a good system to highlight the differences between various racial or fantasy god's worldviews. The downside, of course, is that it is rather tedious to track.

    If memory serves, Stafford's trait list comes from mixing up the Cardinal and Theological Virtues, Capital Sins, and Capital Virtues in order to have all of them represented.

Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2023, 10:15:41 PM
...
Have you actually played with these? When I briefly tried the Karma rules in Marvel Superheroes, it quickly became clear that point totals had nothing to do with actually being good. It instead encouraged following the letter of the law and spamming the easiest point-gaining options. I had the same view of the honor rules in Oriental Adventures, though we never actually used them.

The Karma rules in MSH don't work because they are an attempt at genre enforcement. It's far easier to just have the PC's buy into the genre/4-color mode of play from the get go, rather than trying to enforce it during actual play.

I would actually have no problem with PC's acting in a "letter of the law" fashion with an Honor system as I think that it fits in with some of the genre conceits of an Oriental Adventures style setting.

For Helveczia, I had no issue over the few test sessions I ran with my group. Of course, it may just be my group.

But I think that it also had to do with the games conceit of having a monotheistic faith that was objectively true. The players had a inherent idea of what was culturally acceptable behavior.

In my opinion: The "points" are not something that you should let the PC's keep track of during the course of a session. That chart should be something that the players see once during PC creation - after that I don't think it is something that the PC's should be looking at with any regularity, or even allowed to do so.

I also don't think such a system would work very well out side of a single objectively true monotheistic paradigm.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 25, 2023, 07:46:38 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2023, 01:47:04 AM
Strange that they chose Prudentius' list rather than the more common virtues of Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, Justice, Faith, Hope and Charity.

Actually, that's Pope Gregory I's revised AD 590 list and they're known as the Capital Virtues as they opposed the seven Capital (i.e. Deadly) Sins.

Prudentius' list was Chastity/Lust, Faith/Idolatry, Good Works/Greed, Concord/Discord, Sobriety/Indulgence, Patience/Wrath, and Humility/Pride.

Gregory's revised list was Chastity/Lust, Diligence/Sloth, Charity/Greed, Kindness/Envy, Temperance/Gluttony, Patience/Wrath, and Humilith/Pride.

Regardless, the reason the game used the capital virtues is because, unlike the Cardinal+Theological virtues, the capital ones are directly opposed by sin. Ergo, it functions as a 7-axis alignment system of sorts.

Yeah, I remembered wrong.

I guess that direct opposition is the cause, yes, but I know that if I was doing a "medieval authentic" complex alignment system I'd use the more standard list of Virtues, which more accurately reflected what a masculine hero should embody in the Medieval Christian world.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 25, 2023, 02:18:04 PM
The Karma rules in MSH don't work because they are an attempt at genre enforcement. It's far easier to just have the PC's buy into the genre/4-color mode of play from the get go, rather than trying to enforce it during actual play.

Quote from: Jaeger on April 25, 2023, 02:18:04 PM
In my opinion: The "points" are not something that you should let the PC's keep track of during the course of a session. That chart should be something that the players see once during PC creation - after that I don't think it is something that the PC's should be looking at with any regularity, or even allowed to do so.

I also don't think such a system would work very well out side of a single objectively true monotheistic paradigm.

Hiding the system from the players at least removes some of the potential negative effects -- but it also means it is less of a motivator for the players -- when it seems to me that the whole point of using the system is ultimately to affect player behavior.

My problem with a "point total" mechanic like Karma is that taking twenty arbitrary decisions of "how many points is this act worth" ends up being less accurate than a single decision of "how good is this person"?

Also, calculating point totals seems anti-Christian to me -- in particular, it opposes the parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. Someone who leads a bad life for decades can be forgiven and end up equal to someone who has been virtuous their whole life.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2023, 01:47:04 AM
Strange that they chose Prudentius' list rather than the more common virtues of Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, Justice, Faith, Hope and Charity.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 25, 2023, 07:46:38 AM
Gregory's revised list was Chastity/Lust, Diligence/Sloth, Charity/Greed, Kindness/Envy, Temperance/Gluttony, Patience/Wrath, and Humilith/Pride.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 25, 2023, 05:59:37 PM
I guess that direct opposition is the cause, yes, but I know that if I was doing a "medieval authentic" complex alignment system I'd use the more standard list of Virtues, which more accurately reflected what a masculine hero should embody in the Medieval Christian world.

How do you think it is more accurate, Pundit? Also, by specifying "masculine hero", are you implying there should be different virtues for a feminine hero?

I think I agree with you. From my view, if I put together chaste, diligent, charitable, kind, temperate, patient, and humble -- those qualities imply more of a dependable workman than a heroic adventurer. I think some of the traditional virtues the Pundit listed -- like being brave and just -- seem more appropriate for a hero.

Yes, perhaps I should have said "heroic" medieval Christian virtues.

Alignment is one thing the Palladium Games do way better than any version of Alignment in D&D.

I always have problem with Law-Chaos axis. It the revolutionary who want to establish his own more controlling system of goverment Lawful or Chaotic? Is tyrant ruler Lawful or Chaotic? Etc.

It's not hard if you just work those examples out in advance, and get your players' buy-in. Before you start. Doesn't have to match anyone else's opinions outside your group.