The real problem with RPGs is the same problem that befell traditional hex/counter wargames:  Insularity.  

By and large, RPGs start focusing more and more on people who already play them, instead of focusing on reaching new audiences, new blood, and expanding the market.

The hobby does not make effort to even present open doors that make it easy for new blood to get involved.  

Even D&D has this problem.  Lots of books upon books aimed at hardcore existing players, but only recently did we get anything resembling a decent "basic set" box, and there's still a major dearth of pre-built adventures outside of 3rd parties, at least as I've seen.  And the ones that are there, the game stores don't stock.

WotC has shown with their other games that they have more than enough skill and ability when it comes to bringing in new players to a game by the boatload, with their past CCGs.  Why the hell they have decided that somehow that skill just shouldn't be applied to D&D I will never understand.

It's certainly true that it can be quite an insular hobby. But I think gamers themselves are more insular than game books or game companies.

When people look for new people for their group, or a person looks for a new group, they often run into this problem. Gamers often only recruit from people already gamers, and game groups are often a bit paranoid about outsiders, maybe he'll be a catpissman, etc.

Given that many people get into gaming not from picking up a book in a store, but from having someone invite them into a game group, this gamer insularity is quite a bad thing.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhen people look for new people for their group, or a person looks for a new group, they often run into this problem. Gamers often only recruit from people already gamers, and game groups are often a bit paranoid about outsiders, maybe he'll be a catpissman, etc.
 
Given that many people get into gaming not from picking up a book in a store, but from having someone invite them into a game group, this gamer insularity is quite a bad thing.

The problem is, how exactly does one go recruiting amongst non-gamers? It's probably not too hard if you're at a school, college or uni - you put a notice on the student message board or you play in public and see who gets curious.
The only other method I can think of right now is hanging around in bookshops and accosting people who browse through the sci-fi & fantasy section. This happened to me a few months ago when, glancing at The Art of Discworld I was accosted by a large, enthusiastic man with a large, enthusiastic beard who enthused about Discworld. He didnt mention gaming as such, but my spidey senses were tingling
 I mentioned it to gaming friends later and it turns out the guy works there and has a habit of pouncing on people in the fantasy section.

I've had huge sucess recruiting non-gamers simply by inviting them to a game.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI've had huge sucess recruiting non-gamers simply by inviting them to a game.

Yes, but are they friends/relatives or just random people in the street?

Quote from: O'BorgYes, but are they friends/relatives or just random people in the street?

Friends and relatives! But I have run games for my son and his friends. Often he'll invite a kid over and he'll show the kid our (combined) miniature collection and it just happens from there.

It seems like for kids, miniatures are the gateway, if anything.

Quote from: darFunny thing is, hasn't computerized chess GROWN the chess playing community. Isn't there a huge online chess community? With most everyone of them spoiling for a face to face game or tourney?

Yeah.  I'm trying to wrap my head around the doomsayers who think 15 bazillion online dungeoneers somehow makes it harder for me to recruit players.  I can skip the first half of my recruitment spiel with these people.

Quote from: jrientsYeah.  I'm trying to wrap my head around the doomsayers who think 15 bazillion online dungeoneers somehow makes it harder for me to recruit players.  I can skip the first half of my recruitment spiel with these people.

I have a mate at work who is in the firewall & security team. He plays OGame, EVE Online, WoW and (I think) Guild Wars, some of them from work.
I mentioned Dungeons and Dragons to him once.
"What, the MMO?" he says.
"No, the tabletop game, with dice." Explains me.
"NEEEERRRD!!"

Somehow, pretending to be Ragnor the Barbarian is nerdy if you use dice, but cool if you use a computer.

Quote from: O'Borg...
Somehow, pretending to be Ragnor the Barbarian is nerdy if you use dice, but cool if you use a computer.

Resistance is futile, the computer is the way of the future.:cyborg: :evillaugh: :devil: :arcade:

I think it effectively renders table-top tactical RPGs obsolete.  Those kinds of games simply work better with a dispassionate computer programme playing the role of GM than it does with a person doing it.

The likes of Neverwinter nights even allow you to create your own content.

So if all you want to do is kill things with your buddies then MMORPGs do it better and with greater tactical depth than any table-top RPG can even begin to do.

And to anyone who says that mmorpgs aren't social, you've clearly never played them because the likes of WoW are ALL about social interraction.  Building a group, keeping the group together, managing a guild, making plan s as a group and acting as a team to take down monsters.  You can play the whole thing without ever talking to anyone else but if you do then you're completely missing the point.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalSo if all you want to do is kill things with your buddies then MMORPGs do it better and with greater tactical depth than any table-top RPG can even begin to do.

All I do is kill things with my buddies, yet I find online gaming a poor substitute.  No tiny flickering screen is ever going to be able to top the sheer awesomeness contained in my own imagination.

Quote from: jrientsAll I do is kill things with my buddies, yet I find online gaming a poor substitute.  No tiny flickering screen is ever going to be able to top the sheer awesomeness contained in my own imagination.

  Do you mean that you'd rather visualise than be shown what's going on or do you mean that you find MMORPG adventures limiting?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalDo you mean that you'd rather visualise than be shown what's going on or do you mean that you find MMORPG adventures limiting?

My encounters with MMORPGs have all left me flat despite the fact that I am totally into dungeoneering and orc-killing.  But I don't totally understand why.  Part of it may be that I like people to be physically present at the table, interacting face-to-face.  Part of it no doubt has to do with the fact that a DM can adjudicate any action, not just the ones the game designer foresaw.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt seems like for kids, miniatures are the gateway, if anything.

Really?

Tell me more.

Quote from: jrientsMy encounters with MMORPGs have all left me flat despite the fact that I am totally into dungeoneering and orc-killing.  But I don't totally understand why.  Part of it may be that I like people to be physically present at the table, interacting face-to-face.  Part of it no doubt has to do with the fact that a DM can adjudicate any action, not just the ones the game designer foresaw.

  Did you play in a proper group?  did you do an instance?

  For ages I thought the same way you did, I felt that the MMORPG really wasn't like a proper table-top dungeon because it was in real time and the fights were less cerebral and more about deploying powers but when you play the game properly, it really is remarkably similar.  The Real time aspect makes it a bit more frantic but if played properly it's a proper tactical RPG.

  The problem is that it takes a lot of effort to get to that point.  You really do have to manage your group and find the right people and most MMORPG players are cock-munching teenagers.  But having played proper dungeons in D&D and played an MMORPG (allbeit not for long) I can tell you, there's little to distinguish the two experiences and the tactical depth and complexity added by the fact that no human GM has to keep track of everything makes the MMORPG a pretty attractive alternative to the table-top RPG experience.