There are so many different Dragons. This creates an expectation for experienced players; and confusion for new players.
As an experienced player: As soon as your character learns the visual appearance characteristics of the Dragon; you most likely know from gaming experience what to expect. Then you have to remember that player knowledge, does not equal character knowledge.
As a new player, having multiple types of breath weapons catches you by surprise; unless the breath weapon happens to be Fire. The general public believes that Dragons breathe Fire. A new player won't be expecting their need to prepare for a Poisonous Gas breath weapon, etc.
I am happy with the variety of dragons. But to me, the game is called Dungeons & Dragons so you should regularly encounter...Dungeons and Dragons.
I've never had players complain about encountering a new and different dragon.
I guess it does cheapen the overall pool of Dragons but I find that the Foil and Chase Dragons tend to hold their value over time.
Solution: all dragons are unique. Mix up color, breath weapon and more unique abilities.
Yes. Anything beyond frost, fire and sea dragons seems like clutter.
Things tended to happen in D&D (at least early versions) because people wanted them to happen.
People wanted more dragons. So they made them. Then they got incorporated into the game.
Quote from: Razor 007;1093350As an experienced player: As soon as your character learns the visual appearance characteristics of the Dragon; you most likely know from gaming experience what to expect. Then you have to remember that player knowledge, does not equal character knowledge.
Sure, but that's true for a
lot of monsters such as cockatrices, hydras, trolls, wraiths, etc. All visually distinct, all with iconic abilities.
QuoteAs a new player, having multiple types of breath weapons catches you by surprise; unless the breath weapon happens to be Fire. The general public believes that Dragons breathe Fire. A new player won't be expecting their need to prepare for a Poisonous Gas breath weapon, etc.
This I don't see as a problem (though pulling from mythology poison was another common breath weapon). If the appearance and abilities of dragons are common knowledge "in-game", then just tell the player that. If the appearance and abilities of dragons aren't well known, then I wouldn't expect the character to prepare for, well, anything, and if only fire breathing dragons are well known in game, then I would expect the character to prepare for fire instead of anything else.
I do like weird dragons, especially dragons which match their terrain. I don't want player knowledge from the book take precedent. Green dragons breathes lightning? Cool.
Yes, the overall approach to dragons (and other stuff) in D&D left me cold on them years ago. They're not magical or strange. As Dave said, make each one unique... and push that stuff about how they affect the land around their lairs.
Totally agree. Dragons were so cool that D&D put pics of them everywhere, categorised them into different breeds and whatnot, and totally de-mystified them.
Dragons hold a special significance, representing magical potency as well as physical power. In many places they may represent so much more, such as portents and such.
I reckon keep them rare, powerful, and mysterious. Perhaps not even from mundane reality. And keep their weaknesses individualised, rather than tied to specific breeds.
If there are dozens of types of dragons, and at least enough for a small breeding population of each type; that's hundreds and hundreds of dragons in the world, minimum. They are apex predators that can fly, and they have powerful breath weapons. They are obsessive, and they have voracious appetites. They live from hundreds of years, to more than a thousand years each.
How exactly is your setting supposed to accommodate all of those dragons?
It's just too much. It's overkill. Dragons need to be few and far between, or else civilization will completely collapse.
No it does not cheapen them. Take a look at about any culture with Dragons present and you will usually find some variants within the culture and if you collected them all you'd have far far more than D&D ever will.
At its basics D&D had about 10 different dragons. The 5 chromatic and the 5 metallic. BX dragons were somewhat ambiguous. BX had 6. 5 chromatic and a gold.
And depending on the campaign you might never see a single dragon, Or there might be only one type, Or they might be just a single catchall for all sorts of variations. Or there might be more than 10.
Part of this is that first point. Calling on various legends people have submitted to Dragon and D&D all sorts of variations based on legends and thats not even getting to the original creations because D&D is all about DIYing everything and sharing. Its allways a bit sad to see people rallying against that.
No, having a wide variety of dragons doesn't cheapen their worth. Constantly throwing them away at the player characters is what cheapens their worth.
That's why there are random dragon generators.
http://oldguardgamingaccoutrements.blogspot.com/2009/10/unexpurgated-dragon-generator.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDBehindTheScreen/comments/5k7g67/random_dragon_generator/
Quote from: Dave R;1093357Solution: all dragons are unique. Mix up color, breath weapon and more unique abilities.
True Dragons,
Dragon #50
On one hand, yes: overuse cheapens everything. When everything is filled with dragons (not to mention the impressive number of beasts dragons have cross-bred with), it is hard to keep the mystique. The same has happened to the drow, an elusive subterranean race that's found just about everywhere you dig downwards in your average generic D&D setting.
On the other hand: if we are talking about old D&D, dragons are supposed to be fairly cheap. They are not really the enormous Death Star-like beasts possessing the wisdom of the ages, but the kind of horse- or dog-sized crocodile beasts mediaeval knights would dispatch by the dozens. By the book, a lucky second- or third-level AD&D or OD&D party can probably kill a smaller dragon if they are careful and lucky. So dragons occupy that kind of niche - dangerous but hardly the cosmic beings they are sometimes depicted as in modern fantasy.
Use them as appropriate to your setting's needs.
No more than having a zillion monsters in the various monster manuals cheapens monsters. The point of having a lot is not to use them all in any campaign. Sure, if you a kitchen-sink campaign, you'll cheapen dragons, other monsters, and ultimately everything else. If instead, you pick a selection to use in the campaign, possibly modifying some as you go, then it will be fine.
Of course, if you make dragons powerful enough, then that will probably limit their exposure (barring some special campaign circumstance that makes it work). For example, I've got lots of dragons in my current campaign, but they are usually in a separate plane of existence. From the players' perspective, the possibility of running into a powerful dragon is always there, but in practice they don't, much.
Now I want to play in a game where literally every monstrous creature is a dragon of some kind. Whales are replaced by majestic sea serpents, some massive others ribbon-like. The two-legged bipedal dragons, like carnosaurs with long necks, run across the plains. The smaller versions live in the forest, have giant talons like birds, and pounce from the trees where they roost, and hunt in packs or flocks. Some have bird wings, and take to the sky, but are dwarfed by those with the shape of wyvern, except sometimes with four, or six, or a hundred wings. Little ones swarm like mosquitoes, bringing pestilence. The swamps are filled with many-headed serpents, ranging from two to a hundred snapping heads. Some regenerate, some spit poison, some are so massive it appears like you're being attacked by many snake-like monsters emerging from a dank pool, while others lie in wait coiled among the tree branches. The worst have glares that can mesmerize or kill, and their severed heads are often mounted on basilicas, as guardians. Half-human dragons appear ever so often, some acting as tricksters, others posing questions or challenging heroes, and some of inestimable primordial power. They may have scales and serpentine necks on a humanoid body, a humanoid torso and arms on a snake's tail, many tails, serpentine hair, poisonous auras or bites, and more. Strange puzzle or questing or symbolic beasts may appear, generally quadrupedal and with random parts of other animals like goat's heads or a cat's limbs. Some may be horned or crested, others furred. Some live in burrowed tunnel networks, and eat the roots of trees. Others move into barrows or burial mounds, and dark and heavy ones guard the entrances to the underworld. Some bury themselves in the banks of great rivers, or lie in wait submerged with just their snouts protruding, or flash through the water like quicksilver, or even form the pebbly beds of streams. Some waddlely versions serve as wagons or chariots, with vast mouths they use to engulf passengers or cargo, and then regurgitate on arrival. Others have the heads of bulls or other domestic animals, and graze in vast herds or are and domesticated and put to work. Many-headed winged dragons bring rain and fertility, guard the crops, and may be worshiped or sacrificed to like little gods. Natural forces manifest as serpentine dragons with vestigial legs, and can take various other shapes, including human. Dragons pacified or subdued by saints are abjured from ever doing harm, or sent on crusades to battle infidels. Dragons with tentacled muzzles or maws descend from the cold stars, or ascend from the dark depths of the earth, with strange appetites and powers of the mind, or technology.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1093396No more than having a zillion monsters in the various monster manuals cheapens monsters. The point of having a lot is not to use them all in any campaign. Sure, if you a kitchen-sink campaign, you'll cheapen dragons, other monsters, and ultimately everything else. If instead, you pick a selection to use in the campaign, possibly modifying some as you go, then it will be fine.
Sure, dragons aren't different than other monsters -- but standardization in general can monsters seem less special. That's true even if picking a selection, if multiples of a monster are identical. The Monster Manual is a great resource, but it trades off ease of use with block stats.
Compared to some other games, there's often a feeling of monsters being standardized -- say compared to villains in supers games.
I long decided to make my own take on Dragons. Yes there are multiple color but....
Note: I know some of you have my Majestic Wilderlands supplement, so rather than repeat that I will post the write up I made in 1992 while I was using GURPS.
Dragons of the Majestic Wilderlands
[/HR]
Origins
Dragons were created by the god Set during the Uttermost War against the Demons. They were Set's shock troop in the battles he fought. The Gods and their mortal allies eventually triumphed over the Demons and imprisoned the surviving Demons within the Abyss. To imprison the Demons each of the nine Gods created a crystal harboring their power. Nine towers were built around the entrance to the Abyss to house the crystals. Then it was decided that Set's Dragons would serve as the guardians of the towers.
Dragons Unbound
For a millenniums the dragons guarded the towers. But there was no assaults to free the demon, no thieves to steal the crystals. Some Dragons started chafing at the boredom of their duties. They wanted to be free to soar and hunt in the Wilderlands. Their opportunity came when the Dark Lord came to the Towers with the Chromatic Crystal. The crystal that was the master of the other crystals.
The dragons prepared to do battle with the Dark Lord, but the Dark Lord knew that many dragons were discontented and made a deal. Let them follow him back into the Wilderlands. In return he wouldn't use the Chromatic Crystal against the towers. With their forces divided, the remaining loyal dragons were powerless to stop the other dragons from leaving.
The dragons aided the Dark Lord in the Crystal Wars. The mountains they first resided in, are still known as the Dragon Mountains. With the dragon's help the Dark Lord established his empire. Together they ruled the land. Some of the dragons who originally left with the Dark Lord chafed even at the mild obligations imposed by the alliance with the Dark Lord. They left and pursued their own path in the Wilderlands.
The dragons that remained at the towers were horrified at their brethren's actions. Torn between revenge and duty, they finally decided to send a small contingent of their numbers to aid the Dark Lord's foes. With their aid the the remaining free people were able to triumph over the Dark Lord.
The war against the Dark Lord cost the lives of many good and evil dragons. With the Dark Lord's downfall the evil dragons scattered throughout the Wilderlands. Most of the good Dragons returned to the towers but a few remained to aid the mortal realms against their bethrens. Sadly some of those who remained because consumed with vengeance over their evil dragon's betrayal.
Dragons Today
There are several different types of Dragon in the Wilderlands today.
GOLD DRAGONS
These are the guardians of the towers. Set by the Gods to prevent anyone from tampering with the crystals warding the Abyss. They are also the first line of defense against the demons in case the crystals ever fail. They are the most powerful of all the Dragons and they will not let any mortal pass to the Towers.
All colors are found among these Dragons although Black is the least common. The Greatest of the Chromatic Dragon are Gold in color and is the highest honor of Dragonkind to be allowed to wear the color of Gold.
BLACK DRAGONS
These are the dragons that left the towers with the Dark Lord and aided him in the Crystal Wars. They are evil and extremely dangerous. Most of them are NOT ravagers but prefer to use their abilities to hide and manipulate the mortal realms around them. A notable exception is Pan Caulderaux the destroyer of the Majestic Fastness.
Black is their symbolic color, but Red and White color are common.
COPPER DRAGONS
These dragons left the towers with the Dark Lord but eventually left the Dark Lord during the Crystal Wars. The main reason they left was they wanted to experience the world. Copper Dragons are hedonistic and unpredictable. They are master manipulators, but they are interested in entertainment and not power unlike the Black Dragons.
Copper is their symbolic color but in general any bright, shiny, or flashy color will be found. Confusedly many Copper Dragons are known to have gold and silver colors.
BLUE DRAGONS
These Dragon were among those who were sent by the Gold Dragons to fight the Black Dragons. They did not return to the Towers after the triumph instead stayed to destroy all the remaining Black, and Copper Dragons. They are totally consumed by revenge and will use any means to destroy a Black or Copper Dragon..
All Blue Dragon are blue, no other color has been noted among these, although it is suspected they will assume other colors to achieve their ends. But in the final fight they always are blue. The Blue Dragons are known to be allied with the Church of Set, the god of Tyrants, and Order.
SILVER DRAGONS
These Dragons were among those who were sent by the Chromatic Dragons to fight the Black Dragons. They did not return to the Towers after their triumph but instead stayed to aid the mortal relams against the remaining Black Dragona and the antics of the Copper Dragons. They try to moderate the Blue Dragons lust for vengeance can cause them to destroy anybody in their way.
Silver is their color no other color has been noted in these Dragons.
Dragon powers
All Dragons are reptilian in nature with four limbs, tails, and wings folded into their front limbs. Their hide is made of scales and is one of the toughest substance known in the Wilderlands.
Dragons have the ability to breath fire, and change the color of their hides. They do not speak as normal people do but instead have vast powers of the mind. They can speak inside of your head and are able to perform feats of mind assaults, and control.
A Dragon sense of time/sense is more akin to the Gods than the mortal races. They are able to sense their beginnings as well as their ends. For unknown reasons this doesn't extend to the mortal races only to themselves.
A Dragon is very confident of themself and their position in the world. They believe that they are the highest of the God's Creations and are the master of their destinty. The Silver & Blue Dragons have learned to work with the mortal races, but the others view them with contempt and beneath their notice.
Quote from: Razor 007;1093377How exactly is your setting supposed to accommodate all of those dragons?
They sleep a lot. Especially after they gather a nice comfy bed of coins and gems to lie upon.
My OD&D setting assumes lots of dragons, so towns have anti-dragon defenses.
Also, as most dragons are Chaotic there are plenty of dragons who prey on each other out of greed. And since everyone knows dragons hoard treasure, every other Chaotic monster is out for them too.
In OD&D, 20 gnolls with javelins have a decent chance to take down an adult dragon. Or bare minimum, to wound that dragon enough to abandon its lair so they can loot it.
IMC, I'm at ~10 dragons that are typical D&D dragons. Ancient, crazy smart, and terrifying. Over the past fifteen years of gaming, players have encountered three of them: one briefly joined a group in their adventures; one was an NPC the group worked with; and another was fought very briefly before they wisely decided to run the hell away.
However, because dragons make for pretty neat monsters to fight - and due to some in-world circumstances - there are also "drakes," which have almost all the mechanics of typical dragons, but are not much brighter than animals and have no innate spells or whatever. They are definitely still apex predators and are not something you want to tangle with unless you're prepared, but they are not on the same level as the "named" dragons. At this point in-world, however, no one has developed a way to tell what sort you're dealing with (you can talk to the smart ones, but there's no guarantee they'll respond any differently than the feral ones - maybe they just don't like you, and they typically take their privacy very seriously).
Regardless of "drake" or dragon, they are not color-coded for your convenience, and I use weird dragon colors (with in-world justification for why this is so). Running into a green-and-brown striped dragon tells you (next to) nothing about its attitude, personality, or capabilities: there are records from ancient times that suggest that different color dragons had different sorts of abilities, but over time and with some meddling in dragon genetics and time-accelerated demiplanes (there was essentially a dragon eugenics program instigated by player action), that information is not really all that reliable anymore.
Joke c1977:
New Monster Bestiary! Thousands of new monsters!
Mauve Dragon, Carmine Dragon, Ecru Dragon, Teal Dragon...
Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1093556Joke c1977:
New Monster Bestiary! Thousands of new monsters!
Mauve Dragon, Carmine Dragon, Ecru Dragon, Teal Dragon...
*glancing over at his Carmine Dragon from Forge World* Uh... where can I buy your product, sir? :o
Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1093558*glancing over at his Carmine Dragon from Forge World* Uh... where can I buy your product, sir? :o
LOL, I think it has been out of print for about four decades. ;)
Quote from: jhkim;1093437Sure, dragons aren't different than other monsters -- but standardization in general can monsters seem less special. That's true even if picking a selection, if multiples of a monster are identical. The Monster Manual is a great resource, but it trades off ease of use with block stats.
Compared to some other games, there's often a feeling of monsters being standardized -- say compared to villains in supers games.
Well, there is always going to be somewhat of a difference in a system that generally makes monsters things you can oppose versus a system that makes monsters things you try to avoid as much as possible. D&D being in the first camp, the rules are going to bend the game that way somewhat (however much an individual GM changes things).
I think the answer to the OP is yes - having many different dragon types, and ages, cheapens them overall. It makes them seem very common. Which I think is perfectly fine for a high magic world.
I never liked color-coded dragons. I think it's interesting if different dragons perhaps have some different abilities, but I don't much like the "oh, it's blue, so everyone knows that means it has frost breath" trope.
Quote from: Skarg;1094208I don't much like the "oh, it's blue, so everyone knows that means it has frost breath" trope.
I'm going to guess that few would make that mistake.
Quote from: Skarg;1094208I never liked color-coded dragons. I think it's interesting if different dragons perhaps have some different abilities, but I don't much like the "oh, it's blue, so everyone knows that means it has frost breath" trope.
I'd be very surprised if a blue dragon had frost breath. I'd expect lightning, with frost coming from a white dragon.
I prefer to think that good dragons are few and far between, with their own agendas.
I also prefer; red, black, shadow, undead, and Dracoliches.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094212I prefer to think that good dragons are few and far between, with their own agendas.
I also prefer; red, black, shadow, undead, and Dracoliches.
I like the L5R version of the Shadow Dragon, actually the Shadow tainted Air Dragon.
Quote from: Shasarak;1094213I like the L5R version of the Shadow Dragon, actually the Shadow tainted Air Dragon.
I had that card back in Jade. That was fun.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1094210I'm going to guess that few would make that mistake.
Quote from: Pat;1094211I'd be very surprised if a blue dragon had frost breath. I'd expect lightning, with frost coming from a white dragon.
Haha!
As a D&D-avoider, I didn't realize blue D&D dragons use lightning. Almost all of the Western-style dragons in the games I've played and run have breathed fire and had whatever decorative scale colors they had, not generally being a code to anything.. The only game setting I play with color-coded dragons in Illwinter's _Dominions_, where the blue dragons are frost dragons.
But I meant to refer to the concept of dragons being color coded by their abilities. I guess it's just my typical aversion to D&D-style things. I think different subspecies of dragons with different abilities would be ok, but something about the color-coding feels off to me.
Quote from: Dave R;1093357Solution: all dragons are unique. Mix up color, breath weapon and more unique abilities.
That's something I like about the Malazan Empire setting; there are no "species" of dragons, each one is unique.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094212I prefer to think that good dragons are few and far between, with their own agendas.
I also prefer; red, black, shadow, undead, and Dracoliches.
Yes I am a firm believer that there shouldnt be any good dragons at all. Unless you're playing Dragonlance.
Quote from: Psikerlord;1094324Yes I am a firm believer that there shouldnt be any good dragons at all. Unless you're playing Dragonlance.
Any particular reason? Is this just for D&D's classic "Euro" dragons (except the gold, which often looked more Asian), or would it also apply to Oriental dragons and things like Shadowrun's feathered serpents?
When was the first time the gold started having an Eastern dragon look? Was that 3rd that did that?
Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1094329When was the first time the gold started having an Eastern dragon look? Was that 3rd that did that?
No, the body of the gold in the 1e MM is long, sinuous, flying but lacks wings, and has short limbs. The head has a beard and a stylized look. Very Chinese. The description also mentions they love pearls.
Huh. I did not remember that. Thank you, Pat.
If Dragons are intelligent creatures then of course there would be good ones.
Quote from: Razor 007;1093377If there are dozens of types of dragons, and at least enough for a small breeding population of each type; that's hundreds and hundreds of dragons in the world, minimum. They are apex predators that can fly, and they have powerful breath weapons. They are obsessive, and they have voracious appetites. They live from hundreds of years, to more than a thousand years each.
How exactly is your setting supposed to accommodate all of those dragons?
It's just too much. It's overkill. Dragons need to be few and far between, or else civilization will completely collapse.
Dragons don't have to reproduce as normal animals. It used to be a common belief that life was created from nothing. The term is Abiogenesis (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/51/Spontaneous_Generation*.html) - logs in a swamp turn into alligators; moldy food turns into maggots, etc. Dragons COULD be a personification of greed literally created by gathering too much wealth in a single place. Dragons themselves may need to harvest wealth in order to hatch their eggs.
Setting that aside, I like the idea of dragons appearing more as reptiles do. A dragon with a red head and a blue body (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agama_agama) is visually interesting. Having forest dragons with no vestigal wings and small front limbs that crawl like snakes and other dragons that have only legs and wings (like a pterodactyl) can work. In that case having 'types' of dragons makes sense (wyrms, drakes, true dragons, etc).
Ultimately, having more options isn't really ever a problem. When building the world, you have to decide how much you keep. If you have a multi-planar world (as many D&D worlds end up being) there's no problem with having 10+ dragons in the 'prime' and 10+ dragons in the Shadowvold and 10+ dragons in the Fiery Hellscape. More is good, as long as they're used appropriately.
Edited - Updated link to focus more on medieval concepts of abiogenesis
Quote from: Shasarak;1094379If Dragons are intelligent creatures then of course there would be good ones.
Why?
Quote from: Pat;1094394Why?
Why are intelligent creatures able to choose to be good or evil?
Quote from: Shasarak;1094395Why are intelligent creatures able to choose to be good or evil?
You packed a huge number of assumptions into that "of course". I just wondered if you'd actually examined those assumptions, but it seems not to be the case.
Quote from: Pat;1094449You packed a huge number of assumptions into that "of course". I just wondered if you'd actually examined those assumptions, but it seems not to be the case.
Hmm, evidently.
Quote from: Razor 007;1093377How exactly is your setting supposed to accommodate all of those dragons?
Depends on how powerful dragons get in your setting.
Here's the black dragon from S&W SRD.
Adult Black Dragon (7 HD): HD 7 (28hp); AC 2 [17]; Atk 2 claws (1d4), 1 bite (3d6); Move 9 (Fly 24); Save 9; AL C; CL/XP 9/1100; Special: Spits acid.
It spits acid in a line...which means 1-2 PCs get hit.
It's claws are a daggers (2.5 points average).
AC 17 is just plate armor.
It's bite is badass (10.5 point average)
It has great saves, but its HP is only ok (28 HP)
Quote from: Razor 007;1093377Dragons need to be few and far between, or else civilization will completely collapse.
A bronze age civilization has companies of archers, and most faux-medieval settings have crossbows, arbalests, etc.
Dragons can threaten a village, but a fortified town will take down a dragon swiftly.
If 20 archers of 0 level fire at the Black Dragon, 3 with hit and 1 will crit. Let's say the crit does max damage.
Even if we're using D6 for bow damage, the dragon just took (3x3.5 + 6) 17.5 damage.
That's enough to get the dragon to flee. It's got 10 HP left.
Of course, the math changes if dragons in your setting get auto-Fear auras, or if there is massive HP and AC inflation.
Dragons can be as powerful as you want them to be in your setting.
They can have Dozens of HP, or Hundreds of HP.
It's the 47 Different Flavors of Dragons concept that rubs me wrong. There are sooooo many dragons, that if each type had only 10 living specimens; every cave, swamp, forest, mountain, desert, and dungeon in the world would have a dragon there. There are many other monsters in the monster manuals and Bestiaries.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094548Dragons can be as powerful as you want them to be in your setting.
Agreed, but if dragons are powerful nuisance, that's different than if dragons are city destroyers.
You can have a lot more dragons if they aren't demigods.
But the need for mega-enemies is much greater when you have high level PC superheroes. As my OD&D cuts out at 10th level, I don't need a 400 HP encounter to challenge them.
Personally, that's the disconnect for me when the world's monsters keep tracking to the PC's level.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094548It's the 47 Different Flavors of Dragons concept that rubs me wrong. There are sooooo many dragons, that if each type had only 10 living specimens; every cave, swamp, forest, mountain, desert, and dungeon in the world would have a dragon there.
To me, that's a feature for the game Dungeons & Dragons where the world is littered with both dungeons and dragons (in how I like to run D&D).
I personally believe the MM is a menu for campaign building. You shouldn't put the entire buffet on your plate.
I'm cool with the 47 flavors, but my campaign won't use more than a dozen and few of those will be unique creatures.
Also, many dragons are restricted by terrain. Unless you go to the frozen part of the campaign world, you won't meet white dragons.
BUT...here's an easy solution. Make a random chart for dragon design. Each dragon is unique and the PCs won't know WTF they're up against unless they do their research beforehand.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1094554Personally, that's the disconnect for me when the world's monsters keep tracking to the PC's level.
Agreed, and in D&D it's really not necessary when planar travel allows the PCs to actively track to worlds that fit their levels.
Dragons are NPCs, straight up. Any monster that isn't is "just a monster".
As to a draon's hunting radius -- in my world, dragons derive sustenance from the hoards of treasure upon which they slumber. No need to reduce these magical wonders to something that requires eating N number of local farm cows to survive. In the lore I've consumed over the years, dragons most frequently appear when angry, slighted, etc., and not simple because they're hungry.
Quote from: Razor 007;1094548Dragons can be as powerful as you want them to be in your setting.
They can have Dozens of HP, or Hundreds of HP.
It's the 47 Different Flavors of Dragons concept that rubs me wrong. There are sooooo many dragons, that if each type had only 10 living specimens; every cave, swamp, forest, mountain, desert, and dungeon in the world would have a dragon there. There are many other monsters in the monster manuals and Bestiaries.
Is there something somewhere that says dragons only true-breed?
Quote from: kythri;1094607Is there something somewhere that says dragons only true-breed?
Actually, from 3e on (and maybe before), dragons breed with almost anything and seem to fuck like Kirk on a 5-year mission.
Quote from: Razor 007;1093350Does having dozens and dozens of different Dragons, cheapen Dragons overall?
Yes.
Quality over quantity.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1094609Actually, from 3e on (and maybe before), dragons breed with almost anything and seem to fuck like Kirk on a 5-year mission.
So if we ignore the Punnett square genotype prediction stuffs (and it is a fantasy world), a red could breed with a silver and output a blue. There's not necessarily any need to maintain populations of multiple dragon types/colors.
Quote from: HappyDaze;1094609Actually, from 3e on (and maybe before), dragons breed with almost anything and seem to fuck like Kirk on a 5-year mission.
I remember inter species Dragon breeding from the Dragonlance novels which would be closer to 1e then 3e.
Quote from: kythri;1094614So if we ignore the Punnett square genotype prediction stuffs (and it is a fantasy world), a red could breed with a silver and output a blue. There's not necessarily any need to maintain populations of multiple dragon types/colors.
Well, obviously interbreeding the Black Watch and Royal Stewart Dragons is how you get Clan Wallace Dragons.