As far as I know in the 70s the idea was literally "Here's the dungeon, go explore" (not everyone did this but this was basically the default), with the "hexcrawl" stuff coming from the Wilderness part of the 3LBBs that talks about using outdoor survival but even that seems to indicate it's only when you're traveling to/from a destination, not as a mode of play. B/X which I've read (but didn't play as I was too young, Moldvay Basic came out a year before I was born anyway and Menzter came out when I was 1 year old) says 1-3 you should have no outside encounters at all, then 4-14 you can add in outdoor encounters, but nothing (outside of X1 anyway) seem to indicate those are anything more than random encounters while traveling to a destination, certainly not the modern "hexcrawl" that I've seen espoused on Youtube and social media.

I started in 90 although I played 1e briefly, then moved to the 1991 "Black Box" Basic set (with the weird cards to teach you the game and Zanzer's Dungeon), then quickly picked up AD&D 2e and never looked back.

I don't want to keep derailing the thread, if someone wants to make a spin off thread I'll be happy to further talk about it. I only wanted to initially voice my distaste for DCC

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 19, 2024, 08:38:35 AMI don't want to keep derailing the thread, if someone wants to make a spin off thread I'll be happy to further talk about it

Ok, will do. I'll make the topic. It's worth discussing.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 19, 2024, 08:38:35 AMAs far as I know in the 70s the idea was literally "Here's the dungeon, go explore" (not everyone did this but this was basically the default), with the "hexcrawl" stuff coming from the Wilderness part of the 3LBBs that talks about using outdoor survival but even that seems to indicate it's only when you're traveling to/from a destination, not as a mode of play.

"Wilderness" adventuring was most definitely a thing in the 70s. I never heard the term "hexcrawl" until recent years. We called it "wilderness".

And yes, dungeoneering was the default, not "outdoor survival" (our "wilderness" adventures were rarely "survival" scenarios).

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with "sandboxing" though. No one I know uses the word "sandbox" to indicate wilderness vs. dungeon. Sandbox is about player agency, regardless of the "terrain".

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 17, 2024, 06:24:51 AMTo me it feels more like 3E on Acid...

I think Pundit has been running a DCC campaign for about 12 years, so it can sustain campaigns

If you mean legacy- it's ~15 years old, no 2e, just reprints (although they changed the language and newer prints seem of thinner paper stock. my 8th printing is built like a tank). I believe it's here to stay but can't see it coming close to mainstream

It's one of my most beloved systems

It'll be 12 years in early February.
I also wrote World of the Last Sun as a setting/sourcebook for it, and the Gonzo Fantasy Companion too.

It's a fantastic game for long-term play.

DCC always seemed to me to be the "Pearl Jam" of RPGs

a game (band) everyone is *supposed to like*, gets a lot of publicity, but really doesn't deliver imho. It really isn't all that good.

a few fun mechanics and ideas, but nothing that stands out. The game world and settings aren't anything new or exciting.

not a *bad* game, just nothing special.

it's like Shadowdark --a lot of hype

much better games out there

Quote from: MerrillWeathermay on December 20, 2024, 08:13:56 PMDCC always seemed to me to be the "Pearl Jam" of RPGs

a game (band) everyone is *supposed to like*, gets a lot of publicity, but really doesn't deliver imho. It really isn't all that good.

a few fun mechanics and ideas, but nothing that stands out. The game world and settings aren't anything new or exciting.

not a *bad* game, just nothing special.

it's like Shadowdark --a lot of hype

much better games out there

DCC is radically more different than Shadowdark, and was written much earlier (in fact, Shadowdark borrowed some ideas from DCC, as it did with other OSR games). And it is highly special, in the way it handles niche protection, and with the capacity it has at high-level play to make each class extremely effective, without just all being able to do the same things as each other.

It also manages to have a more effective ongoing death-risk for characters even at high levels, one of the common problems of D&D.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 20, 2024, 05:41:49 PM

Quote from: a_wanderer on December 17, 2024, 06:24:51 AMTo me it feels more like 3E on Acid...

I think Pundit has been running a DCC campaign for about 12 years, so it can sustain campaigns

If you mean legacy- it's ~15 years old, no 2e, just reprints (although they changed the language and newer prints seem of thinner paper stock. my 8th printing is built like a tank). I believe it's here to stay but can't see it coming close to mainstream

It's one of my most beloved systems

It'll be 12 years in early February.
I also wrote World of the Last Sun as a setting/sourcebook for it, and the Gonzo Fantasy Companion too.

It's a fantastic game for long-term play.

Having a big list of spell effects, based upon the level of the success of your die roll, for every spell in the book; is a cool take on spell effects.  It's something different.  A roll of 30, is far more successful than a 20.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 20, 2024, 05:41:49 PMIt'll be 12 years in early February.
I also wrote World of the Last Sun as a setting/sourcebook for it, and the Gonzo Fantasy Companion too.

It's a fantastic game for long-term play.

Hmmm, I didn't know that. Well, two more products to buy. Also I saw this:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/424141/rpgpundit-presents-the-gonzo-fantasy-companion

"Hipster Elves"

That's so random...

DCC reminds me of LotFP. Some really cool ideas and great adventures in a game that iv never seen anyone actually play. Its like its built to be a place other designers steal ideas from and not a real game.

Quote from: StoneDev on December 22, 2024, 05:32:11 PMDCC reminds me of LotFP. Some really cool ideas and great adventures in a game that iv never seen anyone actually play. Its like its built to be a place other designers steal ideas from and not a real game.

Any game that is not D&D is far less likely to be seen in the wild.

Quote from: Brad on December 21, 2024, 11:45:55 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 20, 2024, 05:41:49 PMIt'll be 12 years in early February.
I also wrote World of the Last Sun as a setting/sourcebook for it, and the Gonzo Fantasy Companion too.

It's a fantastic game for long-term play.

Hmmm, I didn't know that. Well, two more products to buy. Also I saw this:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/424141/rpgpundit-presents-the-gonzo-fantasy-companion

"Hipster Elves"

That's so random...

Hipster Elves are part of the Last Sun setting. There are several kinds of elves in the setting: Hipster Elves, Smug Elves, Posh Elves, Shadow Elves... the Hipster Elves spent thousands of years living in utopian dome communities where their every need was tended to, and as a result became highly incompetent. Now most of those domes are falling apart, putting their people in crisis.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 23, 2024, 12:37:39 AMHipster Elves are part of the Last Sun setting. There are several kinds of elves in the setting: Hipster Elves, Smug Elves, Posh Elves, Shadow Elves... the Hipster Elves spent thousands of years living in utopian dome communities where their every need was tended to, and as a result became highly incompetent. Now most of those domes are falling apart, putting their people in crisis.

Detecting a heavy Moorcock vibe here.

Quote from: Brad on December 23, 2024, 10:18:39 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 23, 2024, 12:37:39 AMHipster Elves are part of the Last Sun setting. There are several kinds of elves in the setting: Hipster Elves, Smug Elves, Posh Elves, Shadow Elves... the Hipster Elves spent thousands of years living in utopian dome communities where their every need was tended to, and as a result became highly incompetent. Now most of those domes are falling apart, putting their people in crisis.

Detecting a heavy Moorcock vibe here.

There's a lot of Moorcock in it, though with a bit more comedic aspects than Moorcock usually does.

Quote from: StoneDev on December 22, 2024, 05:32:11 PMDCC reminds me of LotFP. Some really cool ideas and great adventures in a game that iv never seen anyone actually play. Its like its built to be a place other designers steal ideas from and not a real game.

It's played a ton at various cons, they have a huge presence at Gen Con for instance, and the people who play it love it dearly, it's not the market leader like D&D but it certainly has carved out its own niche.

Quote from: Zalman on December 19, 2024, 10:18:48 AM"Wilderness" adventuring was most definitely a thing in the 70s. I never heard the term "hexcrawl" until recent years. We called it "wilderness".

And yes, dungeoneering was the default, not "outdoor survival" (our "wilderness" adventures were rarely "survival" scenarios).

I'm not sure what any of this has to do with "sandboxing" though. No one I know uses the word "sandbox" to indicate wilderness vs. dungeon. Sandbox is about player agency, regardless of the "terrain".

For my group, D&D in the 1970's went through several stages:

I) Started with dungeons. Lots of dungeons, and clearly the "default" for the game as we saw it.

II) At some point we needed a town so that we could buy and sell stuff. Which led to having to adventure overland to go between village and dungeon, and back again. Early adventures were simply of a "we roll twice for random encounters each way" sort of thing, and we hoped not to die on the way there or back. Occasionally a party got so damaged on the way to the dungeon that they had to return to the village without ever getting to enter the dungeon at all.

III) Area map with dungeon and village and other places to visit. We didn't use the term "hexcrawl" as I don't think our original maps were even done on hexpaper, but it was very much "explore mode" as characters wandered from place to place so I would say that it was very much a "hexcrawl" in philosophy where the players wandered and mapped the area a lot like they wandered and mapped the dungeons.

IV) We had heard about Arneson's Blackmoor campaign by 1977, and very much were interested in making castles and playing a "barony" type game along with the wandering. (We used the "castle construction" rules to buy our strongholds and design them from scratch, then hire mercenaries. This led to more wargame/miniatures style play with adventures on the character level having influence on battles fought on the barony level. Some of the guys were interested in conquering the area map.

V) This led to an expanded area map, with lots of nations and larger-scale events.

None of this was done with premade campaign settings, although I did have access to early Judges Guild products. I tried running a campaign on the JG Wilderlands map #1 but it wasn't as interesting to me at the time as my homebrew maps with JG places dropped into them. (The CSIO, for example, became a template for every city in my campaign. Every time characters reached a city I pulled out the same map.) The whole thing really grew organically from the small scale to the large scale as needed, as opposed to modern published settings that start big and then work small.