Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 17, 2024, 09:18:29 PMYou are aware that a significant number of the posters here were actually playing RPGs in the 70s and/or 80s?  The sandbox/hexcrawl was the primary structure of my games in the 80s, and almost everyone I knew played similarly.  Published modules were a very small portion of our gaming, and we didn't create "plot" or a set adventure often at all.  Mostly it was, "Here's some rumors, what do you want to do?" and sometimes what we came up with had nothing to do with what the DM had prepped.

So, as someone there, it's not a "myth," it's exactly how I (and my groups) played...

This is true, there has been a lot of sandbox/hexcrawl play since forever and there are some third party modules for D&D (like the Wee Warrior series currently sold by Precis Intermedia as reprints) are exactly that. Any adventure can be a sandbox when the players get wanderlust or are just being players.

Quote from: bat on December 17, 2024, 09:43:20 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 17, 2024, 09:18:29 PMYou are aware that a significant number of the posters here were actually playing RPGs in the 70s and/or 80s?  The sandbox/hexcrawl was the primary structure of my games in the 80s, and almost everyone I knew played similarly.  Published modules were a very small portion of our gaming, and we didn't create "plot" or a set adventure often at all.  Mostly it was, "Here's some rumors, what do you want to do?" and sometimes what we came up with had nothing to do with what the DM had prepped.

So, as someone there, it's not a "myth," it's exactly how I (and my groups) played...

This is true, there has been a lot of sandbox/hexcrawl play since forever and there are some third party modules for D&D (like the Wee Warrior series currently sold by Precis Intermedia as reprints) are exactly that. Any adventure can be a sandbox when the players get wanderlust or are just being players.

Fair enough, but through the 80s we played about 80-90% published modules, with the rest being homebrew.  Then, 2e came out and most of the people I played with left D&D for other games. For me and my group it was MERP and we played entirely published material with the GM (me) linking the various adventures together loosely.  So I think all these past experiences are situational/contextual.

I 'm in love with DCC. It really looks like ad&d with more gore. However, it's important to choose the best authors (harvey stroh and michael curtis imo)

I ran the funnel "The Hole in the Sky" leading into a homebrew campaign. Half of my players didn't like the funnel experience but, they weren't into old school type high fatality experiences.

On the other hand, they seemed to enjoy the unpredictability of the magic (especially the custom experiences of the first casting of a spell).

I think "old school feel" describes it right, but mostly because modules like Expedition to the Barrier Peaks and a lot of Judge's Guild stuff fits with the tone of the game.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 17, 2024, 08:20:38 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 17, 2024, 04:36:03 PMNot to derail the thread but because it seems like a nonsense idea made up by "OSR" people based on how they THINK games actually worked; it comes off more like people who read someone talking about it once on a forum and was like "That must have been how people played in the 80s!" because no game that I played in the 90s or talked to people who played actually did that stuff. You had an adventure (homebrew or published) that you presented to the PCs and they were expected to take the "bait", not a list of rumors/quests and ask the PCs "what one do you want to pick" like a videogame. Hexcrawls make zero sense unless it's like an uncharted island (isle of dread), nobody played that way.

It's mainly the fact the OSR crowd seems to proselytize this as the "true way" of old-school gaming when that's an outright fabrication.

B2 Keep on the Borderlands was both a Hexcrawl (without hexes but functionally it was) and a sandbox (no fetch quests, minimal guidance on what to do). B2 is the most played module in D&D history.

I don't see where B2 is a hexcrawl at all (you have a map, you're not exploring the place), or even a real sandbox since it very clearly tells you the PCs are meant to go the Caves of Chaos, and then you can expand the Caves of the Uknown as you see fit. That doesn't sound like the sandbox people are talking about online where it sounds like there is no "main" piece it's ONLY a collection of rumors (a mission board like in a videogame), but it does sound like MY idea of the sandbox where the side things (lizardmen, the spiders, the mad hermit, rumors in the keep, etc) are side things that could be encountered or ignored. The Caves are still the "main" adventure, which you're supposed to try and herd the PCs into. Everything else is a side thing, but the point is to get them into the Caves.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 17, 2024, 09:18:29 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 17, 2024, 04:36:03 PMNot to derail the thread but because it seems like a nonsense idea made up by "OSR" people based on how they THINK games actually worked; it comes off more like people who read someone talking about it once on a forum and was like "That must have been how people played in the 80s!" because no game that I played in the 90s or talked to people who played actually did that stuff. You had an adventure (homebrew or published) that you presented to the PCs and they were expected to take the "bait", not a list of rumors/quests and ask the PCs "what one do you want to pick" like a videogame. Hexcrawls make zero sense unless it's like an uncharted island (isle of dread), nobody played that way.

It's mainly the fact the OSR crowd seems to proselytize this as the "true way" of old-school gaming when that's an outright fabrication.

You are aware that a significant number of the posters here were actually playing RPGs in the 70s and/or 80s?  The sandbox/hexcrawl was the primary structure of my games in the 80s, and almost everyone I knew played similarly.  Published modules were a very small portion of our gaming, and we didn't create "plot" or a set adventure often at all.  Mostly it was, "Here's some rumors, what do you want to do?" and sometimes what we came up with had nothing to do with what the DM had prepped.

So, as someone there, it's not a "myth," it's exactly how I (and my groups) played...

While I don't doubt you and appreciate the insight, I never heard of anyone before the "OSR" crowd who actually played that way. A lot of people who evangelized how this was the "true way" to play but not anyone who actually did it.

It has been out for around 13 years now.  There are, apparently, hundreds of compatible products with more coming out all the time.  I'd say it already has pretty long legs.   

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 18, 2024, 08:34:17 AMWhile I don't doubt you and appreciate the insight, I never heard of anyone before the "OSR" crowd who actually played that way. A lot of people who evangelized how this was the "true way" to play but not anyone who actually did it.

I did.  I ran the game that way through most of the 80s.  I don't think it's the one true way to play or that there is a one true way to play but I did play that way.  It was pretty much the default way to play where I lived alongside kick in the door dungeon crawling.

I have seen it as a side to "Here's the big dungeon", which also seems to be the "traditional" sandbox not the OSR "zero prep, PCs decide everything where to go" approach. Like when you're tired of exploring the dungeon you go do something else based on a rumor you heard/job someone is offering, but the dungeon is always there as the "default"

I don't know about where you lived but this is generally how it went with the people I played with back in the 80s.  You go to town.  There are some jobs on a job board, some various rumors or something along those lines.  You pick one.  You go to where it is.  There is some variation of a dungeon there.  I mean a dungeon in a broad sense not just the underground complex sort of dungeon.  Steading of the Hill Giant Chief took place in an above ground building but I would still call that a dungeon.  Once you got there, you kicked in the doors, killed the monsters and took their stuff.  Then it was back to town to buy/sell and get the next job or rumor.  Wash, rinse repeat. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 18, 2024, 09:15:39 AMI don't know about where you lived but this is generally how it went with the people I played with back in the 80s.  You go to town.  There are some jobs on a job board, some various rumors or something along those lines.  You pick one.  You go to where it is.  There is some variation of a dungeon there.  I mean a dungeon in a broad sense not just the underground complex sort of dungeon.  Steading of the Hill Giant Chief took place in an above ground building but I would still call that a dungeon.  Once you got there, you kicked in the doors, killed the monsters and took their stuff.  Then it was back to town to buy/sell and get the next job or rumor.  Wash, rinse repeat. 

Yeah, roughly that. You go to town, there are rumors, you can pick a rumor to check out (side trek adventure) or just go to the dungeon ("main" adventure) and continue exploring it. Those rumors may change from time to time or be expanded/changed.

Anyway sorry to derail the thread

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 18, 2024, 08:32:27 AMI don't see where B2 is a hexcrawl at all (you have a map, you're not exploring the place), or even a real sandbox since it very clearly tells you the PCs are meant to go the Caves of Chaos, and then you can expand the Caves of the Uknown as you see fit. That doesn't sound like the sandbox people are talking about online where it sounds like there is no "main" piece it's ONLY a collection of rumors (a mission board like in a videogame), but it does sound like MY idea of the sandbox where the side things (lizardmen, the spiders, the mad hermit, rumors in the keep, etc) are side things that could be encountered or ignored. The Caves are still the "main" adventure, which you're supposed to try and herd the PCs into. Everything else is a side thing, but the point is to get them into the Caves.

From the players point of view it is a hex crawl. Nobody knows where the caves of chaos are and they need to find them. Just because the DM isn't rolling up content for each hex doesn't change things. It's exploration with a few set encounters and random encounters the same way Isle of Dread was. The only different is Isle of Dread gave a partial map.
I think you have a different defintion of a sandbox, possibly derived from video games. There is no mission in B2. You risk because of treasure but you are not tasked with anything. I've heard of groups that have attacked the Keep, others that allied with one faction in the caves against others. Very different than the typical adventure path style.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 17, 2024, 09:16:39 PMThe concept of the modern 'adventure path' didn't exactly spring out of a vacuum.

The modern 'adventure path' came out of Dungeon Magazine trying to create adventures in a serial fashion to sell more magazines. At the time the magazine was published by Piazo who continued the concept on their own adventures once they were kicked off that magazine. Prior to that most adventures were location based which allowed DMs to create their own sandboxes filled with a mix of their own and purchased adventures. Yes there were similar items in old school such as the G series and the D series but they started at very high level and didn't try to take a character through their entire career.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventure_Path

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 17, 2024, 09:18:29 PMYou are aware that a significant number of the posters here were actually playing RPGs in the 70s and/or 80s?  The sandbox/hexcrawl was the primary structure of my games in the 80s, and almost everyone I knew played similarly.  Published modules were a very small portion of our gaming, and we didn't create "plot" or a set adventure often at all.  Mostly it was, "Here's some rumors, what do you want to do?" and sometimes what we came up with had nothing to do with what the DM had prepped.

So, as someone there, it's not a "myth," it's exactly how I (and my groups) played...

I'm another one of those from that era, and that's pretty much how we played as well. I owned some Judges Guild materials and the Wee Warriors Dwarven geomorphic adventure, but otherwise never owned any "modules" until sometime in the 2E era. My campaign started with a dungeon, then added a nearby town to go in between adventures and buy stuff, then added in a wilderness region where players could explore. Sometimes we did the job board thing or rumors, but often they just looked at a map and found some place with an interesting name and went there. (The Judges Guild maps were totally full of cool names without any actual adventure, so we had to make the adventure up.)

One of the other DMs in our group bought the G-series and then D-series modules at GenCon, but I didn't own any TSR modules from the AD&D era until a lot later, and the modern day railroady hardback module that we buy for 5E was nothing like the game we played in the 70's and 80's. Our early campaigns were very much hexcrawl and sandbox style affairs with a few rumors and/or DM-inspired plotlines but mostly creative choice by the players.

So, I assume some groups played structured campaigns back then but we certainly didn't. Even the Judges Guild materials of the time (CSIO, Thunderhold, Tegel Manor, etc.) were mostly places to visit and wander through without any pre-determined plotlines to follow.

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 18, 2024, 08:34:17 AMWhile I don't doubt you and appreciate the insight, I never heard of anyone before the "OSR" crowd who actually played that way. A lot of people who evangelized how this was the "true way" to play but not anyone who actually did it.

Yeah, everyone did. I guess you started gaming after that, but for those of us who started in the 70s and 80s, that's how it was. We didn't think of it as a "true way", it was the only way we knew.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 17, 2024, 09:18:29 PM

Quote from: Nobleshield on December 17, 2024, 04:36:03 PMNot to derail the thread but because it seems like a nonsense idea made up by "OSR" people based on how they THINK games actually worked; it comes off more like people who read someone talking about it once on a forum and was like "That must have been how people played in the 80s!" because no game that I played in the 90s or talked to people who played actually did that stuff. You had an adventure (homebrew or published) that you presented to the PCs and they were expected to take the "bait", not a list of rumors/quests and ask the PCs "what one do you want to pick" like a videogame. Hexcrawls make zero sense unless it's like an uncharted island (isle of dread), nobody played that way.

It's mainly the fact the OSR crowd seems to proselytize this as the "true way" of old-school gaming when that's an outright fabrication.

You are aware that a significant number of the posters here were actually playing RPGs in the 70s and/or 80s?  The sandbox/hexcrawl was the primary structure of my games in the 80s, and almost everyone I knew played similarly.  Published modules were a very small portion of our gaming, and we didn't create "plot" or a set adventure often at all.  Mostly it was, "Here's some rumors, what do you want to do?" and sometimes what we came up with had nothing to do with what the DM had prepped.

So, as someone there, it's not a "myth," it's exactly how I (and my groups) played...

I've had the exact same thought as Nobleshield, here. I rarely bring it up, because there's no way to get stats and it's pointless to argue against someone's memory. However, it is also my experience that if you look anywhere outside of OSR circles, the impression you'll get is that pure sanbox/hexcrawl games were never a clear majority when compared to published or semi-plotted homebrew campaigns.

My working theory to square this circle is that it's a kind of survivorship bias. The people who came up in the hobby playing open sandboxes are likely to be the ones that went on to become OSR people. The people who played plotted or semi-plotted campaigns in their youth are more likely to have accepted the new editions and stayed with published D&D (or moved to Pathfinder or other competitors).

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 19, 2024, 07:51:17 AMI've had the exact same thought as Nobleshield, here. I rarely bring it up, because there's no way to get stats and it's pointless to argue against someone's memory. However, it is also my experience that if you look anywhere outside of OSR circles, the impression you'll get is that pure sanbox/hexcrawl games were never a clear majority when compared to published or semi-plotted homebrew campaigns.

My working theory to square this circle is that it's a kind of survivorship bias. The people who came up in the hobby playing open sandboxes are likely to be the ones that went on to become OSR people. The people who played plotted or semi-plotted campaigns in their youth are more likely to have accepted the new editions and stayed with published D&D (or moved to Pathfinder or other competitors).

I suspect there is a difference between those who started with B/X in the early 80's versus those who started earlier.  I started with the Red Box in '81, but everyone I knew that had played, that showed me the works, had started in the 70's. So when I got the Caves of Chaos and the Isle of Dread, I was already primed to run them as sandbox. However, I didn't really know what I was doing, and the instruction on laying out the dungeon in B/X were clear and influential.  The upshot was that I didn't run a pure sandbox (and still don't) but I did run something that was half to 3/4s sandbox, depending on the moment.

There's also a separation between those who started when I did and those who started even 5 years later.  Namely, a lot of us in that transition window didn't have much money.  Because we were teens without a job who got B/X as presents, and then added in bits and pieces of AD&D as it came out. Even when the recession ended, money was still tight for awhile in our area at least.  Modules were a luxury.  In fact, every module I ran (as well as non-D&D games for that matter) in that time frame were borrowed from an older gamer.  It wasn't until '86 that I had the money to buy what I wanted in the way of RPGs.

The borrowed modules influenced how I did my games and wrote my own adventures, but they weren't something on a shelf that I could pull down and reference.  It was all memory of how the game went, what worked and what didn't, and figuring out as I went, similar to but not exactly the same as the earlier gamers.