Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 23, 2024, 09:01:42 PMI did more research, and it turns out that Fevre Dream's vampires are descended from the biblical Cain. At least, one of the vampires in the story speculates about this being the case. This novel was published in 1982!

So yeah, the number of ideas supposedly invented by Mark Rein•Hagen keeps growing smaller the more research I do.

There's pagan cultist snake vampires in the movie Lair of the White Worm, three-eyed soulsuckers come from the anime Sazan Eyes...

IIRC Hagen said something to the effect of - nothing is original, so hide your sources.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 24, 2024, 09:59:39 AMEven that doesn't seem to work. There have been numerous attempts at urban fantasy games without centering vampires and nothing sticks.

To be fair, most every one I've seen is either actually D&D in the modern world (ex. Urban Arcana), still focused on the "play the monster" gig that doesn't fit the mood of the day (ex. Feed), is more interested in Lovecraftian Horror (ex. Call of Cthullu, Delta Green) or runs on a system closer to a Storygame than an RPG (Dresdan is FATE and way too many attempts seem to use PBtA).

And I really want to reiterate the whole "mood of the day" part, because way too many options I've looked at are fundamentally focused on angst, nihilism, and Gnosticism (God is evil and the material world a prison we're trapped in unless you're one of the special enlightened ones).

That works in times of peace and prosperity (like the 90's) when we had the luxury of inventing imaginary unsolvable problems and wallowing in them.

But this is a time when there is more than enough real problems to deal with. People are looking for escapism and hope spots in their entertainment. The urban fantasy needed today just isn't being offered much at the present.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 23, 2024, 09:01:42 PMSo yeah, the number of ideas supposedly invented by Mark Rein•Hagen keeps growing smaller the more research I do.

They didnt invent anything. I should know. Part of my long running detestment of WW staff is I cought them lifting stuff from my very obscure little RPG. This on top of the other disckery going on behind the scenes and even recent. Hagen's pulled the old kickstarter scam routine of "Working on it! Coming soon! Working on it! Coming soon!"

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 23, 2024, 08:40:27 AMVampires had covens and cults before, but outright conspiracies of many dozens living secretly in metropolitan areas seems to be an invention of 80s fiction at the earliest I could find. I'm not counting vampire plagues ruled by a master, since those don't seem to have any kind of culture.

George Martin's 1982 Fevre Dream may count, but it doesn't go into much detail on organization beyond covens.

I am Legend came out in 54 and probably the earliest instance of organized vampires. Though totally different from the 70s and onward ones.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 25, 2024, 12:19:05 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 24, 2024, 09:59:39 AMEven that doesn't seem to work. There have been numerous attempts at urban fantasy games without centering vampires and nothing sticks.

To be fair, most every one I've seen is either actually D&D in the modern world (ex. Urban Arcana), still focused on the "play the monster" gig that doesn't fit the mood of the day (ex. Feed), is more interested in Lovecraftian Horror (ex. Call of Cthullu, Delta Green) or runs on a system closer to a Storygame than an RPG (Dresdan is FATE and way too many attempts seem to use PBtA).

And I really want to reiterate the whole "mood of the day" part, because way too many options I've looked at are fundamentally focused on angst, nihilism, and Gnosticism (God is evil and the material world a prison we're trapped in unless you're one of the special enlightened ones).

That works in times of peace and prosperity (like the 90's) when we had the luxury of inventing imaginary unsolvable problems and wallowing in them.

But this is a time when there is more than enough real problems to deal with. People are looking for escapism and hope spots in their entertainment. The urban fantasy needed today just isn't being offered much at the present.

Yeah. That's why my ideas focus on the fantasy aspect and I don't concern myself with angst or nihilism. I'd like you play angels and dragons and stuff, and they'd fight crime and monsters of the week instead of moping around.

Call of Cthulhu is horror, not urban fantasy.

I have no idea why Urban Arcana died. There's nothing wrong with D&D in modern times. Most gamers coming into the hobby are sucked into D&D and never leave it, so using that as a springboard sounds like a better way to get them into urban fantasy.

Quote from: Omega on October 25, 2024, 02:42:21 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 23, 2024, 09:01:42 PMSo yeah, the number of ideas supposedly invented by Mark Rein•Hagen keeps growing smaller the more research I do.

They didnt invent anything. I should know. Part of my long running detestment of WW staff is I cought them lifting stuff from my very obscure little RPG. This on top of the other disckery going on behind the scenes and even recent. Hagen's pulled the old kickstarter scam routine of "Working on it! Coming soon! Working on it! Coming soon!"

Really? What did they steal? Got receipts?

I noticed this myself once. Feed came out in 2013, whereas V5 came out in 2017. The hunger mechanics in the latter bear some clear similarities to the former, so I wonder if it was inspired by that. Although V5's hunger mechanic is clunky and inferior by comparison, because of course it would be.

I think the main problem with Urban Arcana (owned by WotC) is that after 4E failed to perform any plans for an official 4EModern died. Similarly, while most look at the juggernaut it became, 5e started as an "authors saving throw" to keep Hasbro from pulling the plug on D&D entirely and one of the side effects of that was an extreme cutback on the in-house capabilities and in-house supplements (especially compared to the hardcover and two digital magazines every month of peak 4E)... which would have included any prospect of producing effectively a complete separate line like Urban Arcana.

Yeah, you could crossover monsters and spells, but you'd at least need some different classes as society and technology make using classes either very different (the modern fighter uses a rifle not a sword and their armor is such that it's not terribly good at stopping claws and fangs as it's been optimized for protection from bullets) or outright untenable (where exactly do rage channeling warriors trained in wilderness survival fit into a modern urban setting?)... plus some different skills (tool proficiency works at the medieval level where it's nearly all supplemental elements like crafting, gaming, musical instruments and a few things like theives tools and the rare vehicle... but the modern world centers around using tools, computers, and vehicles and would realistically need to be more central (skills) vs. peripheral (tools) for the modern setting.

That's more work than the scaled back WotC could commit to (and could have been outright blocked by Hasbro... who are perfectly happy with as few people as possible leaving the D&D trough. Even if it's their game it's still getting customers to raise their heads to see the possibility of other games existing).

That said, there IS a d20 Modern SRD that includes Urban Arcana and d20 Future, which could serve as a foundation for something akin to a Urban Arcana 5e if someone were so inclined (you'd need your own fluff, name, and possibly to pull from the 5e SRD, but way less work than doing it from scratch).

Everyday Heroes already seems to be doing the d20 Modern successor. They'll have an urban fantasy setting where magic is public.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 25, 2024, 11:35:59 AMwhere exactly do rage channeling warriors trained in wilderness survival fit into a modern urban setting?)

Well...they could always be an elite version of Doomsday Preppers.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2024, 11:56:21 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 25, 2024, 11:35:59 AMwhere exactly do rage channeling warriors trained in wilderness survival fit into a modern urban setting?)

Well...they could always be an elite version of Doomsday Preppers.

Heh, rage monsters will generally be villains in my setting; a lot of the "werewolf" traits are tied to Wrath and they are traditional man-eating beasts, not valiant eco-warriors.

Actually, the biggest debate I'm having with myself right now is how to handle character building and specifics of measuring attributes.

The modern world lends itself to a more classless approach, while supernatural elements tend to lend themselves better to being silo'd into a class structure. Factoring in as well is that, in my experience, handing players a pile of points to build with only works if they have a genuine concept already in mind and that, at minimum, some type of guided approach will make it easier for normal players to get into it without dropping the workload of building everyone's first characters onto the GM.

As much as I broadly dislike V5, it does make it pretty easy to make characters. For one, you're all playing vampires so your "class" is worked out. For another they ditched the pseudo-point buy that could be munchkin'd by char-oppers and replaced it with an array; ex. one attribute at 4, three at 3, four at 2, and one at 1; super-easy for a new player and repeated for skills. Starting disciplines determined by clan and feeding style (so sub-classes).

I'm leaning towards something like that, though the order might change a bit, where you pick your hunter type as essentially your race/class, then some type of background for skills and WoD type background elements. I'm thinking an array (with a bit of flex) under hunter type for attributes and "powers" and a similar array for skills and a set of background traits for some guided customization.

For improvement, I've become fond of the "menu" approach I first saw in the Arcanis RPG (the one they attempted between their 3e and 5e supplements) and most commonly these days in SWADE where it has "levels" but instead of getting a specific thing, you pick from a menu of options like "improve two skills of rank 0-2 by one rank" or "increase a skill of 3-4 by one rank" or "gain a new power", etc.

The reason for the above is one of the elements of the Cursed archetype is the prospect of ending the curse (ex. by killing the werewolf that bit you). While in a story this would tend to be their ending, an RPG isn't a story and the player probably doesn't want to start an all new character so instead they ge t to basically "respec" (short for re-specification in City of Heroes where you can re-pick your powers and redo their slotting entirely... originally requiring a trial during which you're exposed to a lot of weird radiation) into one of the other archetypes (Called/Mortal by default, but could be Chosen/Gifts from God or Children/some element of the curse lingers, but is no longer a bane to your soul).

Having discrete picks (and a note to specifically track them for Cursed types) makes that "respec" process easier.

My attribute debate is purely presentation. Do I go with 0 average (scores range from -3 to +3 for mortals, though PCs would be mostly -1 to +3) or the WoD style 1-5? The first makes the dice mechanic easier to intuit, the latter is probably easier for character building as a 1-5 stars ranking is pretty intuitive for pe (and the entire TN table gets bumped by +2 since it would be 2 average instead of 0).

I mean, I guess I COULD instead use the same d20-check based game engine as my Ruins & Realms science fantasy (Thundarr/He-Man style) game, but in general I am a fan of bespoke systems whose mechanics specifically support the genre and despite similar building blocks (ex. both have the supernatural and advanced science) the actual assembly is too different to use the same rule set (both a building and a car use steel and glass and both typically have electrical systems and climate control, but are very different things).

There's actually more work in making mechanics to fit the setting than there is in devising the setting itself.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 25, 2024, 10:48:47 AMReally? What did they steal? Got receipts?

Some lines of text and a baser concept. It was small, just a paragraph in one of their Japan setting spin-offs. Palladium was more annoying as they swiped a class name, function, and in the CCG the card art had alot of telltales that indicated someone had glanced at the book. And the card quote.

Keep in mind that at the time WW had some rather draconian business practices and work terms. But so did a few other publishers at the time.

But what really pisses me off is Bethsada came to me posing as fans "wanting to know more about my old company and setting. And then ganked my company name and the name of a really old board game I worked on as a kid... and used it for the title of... Starfield. I would not have cared if theyd just said "hey, we are making a game with a title same as your defunct company. Just FYI. Or not said anything at all. But no. They came to me under false pretenses.

Dont know who, but another company pulled the same stunt a year or two ago. Havent seen it pop up in anything yet. But odds are it will.

Stuff like this happens alot more than people think. That ice age movie Day after Tomorrow ganks its plot heavily from a novel from the 80s or 90s. Not the one they claim. Arrival is another one.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 26, 2024, 08:56:45 AMAs much as I broadly dislike V5, it does make it pretty easy to make characters. For one, you're all playing vampires so your "class" is worked out. For another they ditched the pseudo-point buy that could be munchkin'd by char-oppers and replaced it with an array; ex. one attribute at 4, three at 3, four at 2, and one at 1; super-easy for a new player and repeated for skills. Starting disciplines determined by clan and feeding style (so sub-classes).

WW first did that in Vampire: The Requiem back in 2004. V5 liberally rips off its design. Requiem went even further with it by having 10 disciplines and 5 clans with a vaguely symmetrical spread. Each clan had a cost break on 3 disciplines. 5 discipline cost breaks were limited to 1 clan: Daeva has Majesty, Nosferatu had Nightmare, Mekhet had Auspex, Ventrue had Dominate, Gangrel had Protean. Then, the remaining 5 disciplines were each allocated to 2 clans: Daeva had Celerity and Vigor, Nosferatu had Obfuscate and Vigor, Mekhet had Obfuscate and Celerity, Gangrel and Ventrue both had Animalism and Resilience. I get that grognards hate it for being different from the 90s iteration, but it makes perfect sense for a game. Indeed, it would be an even better basis for video game adaptations. But I digress.

Quote from: Omega on October 26, 2024, 04:47:26 PMStuff like this happens alot more than people think.

Rough, dude.

In terms of Clan-like structures for HotD it's basically going to come down to a founder's effect.

Ex. Dracula bargained with the Devil for various sorcerous powers including sustaining himself even past death on the life's blood* of others in trade for his soul and certain weaknesses. All those he later curses through his bite gain similar powers to Dracula that grow the more sin accumulates in them until they are fully damned.

Similarly, Lycaon became the first werewolf through his sacrifice of his children to Zeus/Baal (a slight twist on the usual tale, but not one invented by me, I read it elsewhere first) and so the powers of those cursed and damned through his line are similar.

A founder can come from anywhere, but most started as what we'd call a witch or warlock who, through depravity above and beyond, caught the attention of Hell and bargained with it for power. Basically all the Damned are "kin" in a loose sense.

For many I'm going to go with mythical founders when possible (Lycaon for werewolves, Dracula as the latest vampire variation... there have been similar blood-drinking founders before, but Drac is the origin of the "modern vampire", etc.).

I am presently leaning towards the infliction of the curse being being something under the control of the Damned (and requires a fair amount of damnation to attempt so those merely cursed and those newly damned aren't super-spreaders) and that it can be used in two ways.

The first is to create one of the cursed; Mina in Dracula, those bitten by a werewolf who lose control under the full moon, a ghost takes up residence (but lacks full control), under a witch's curse, etc. Basically something they choose to inflict on one of the living. They gain powers and a temptation to use them that leads ultimately to damnation.

The second is to create minions from the corpses of their victims (how many depends of the damned's power)... so vampire spawn, zombies, etc. The Damned have no purchase on souls (who must damn themselves), but the bodies left behind are fair game.

The first use leads to cursed PCs and NPCs on the path to becoming monsters. The second leads to the sort of disposable minions a Big Bad needs as I want the Damned to generally be a bit more than mere Monsters of the Week with a party clearing out a different one each session. Ideally you could place half-a-dozen or so Damned in a major metro area and have an extended campaign dealing with them all.

* notably, I'd make the point that the Damned prefer to kill sinners (to try and send them to Hell before they can repent), but not the innocent (who would go to heaven if killed). Instead they'd aim to curse the innocent and seek to lead them into sin (then they'd kill them).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 28, 2024, 11:31:43 AMIn terms of Clan-like structures for HotD it's basically going to come down to a founder's effect.

I've seen something similar in The Everlasting: The Book of the Unliving and The Codex of Vampiric Bloodlines. In those books, anyone who commits sufficient atrocities is damned with vampirism by some higher power. They don't actively make a pact with hell. A bloodline's magical aptitudes and curses are generally based on the proclivities and life experiences of their founder. Book of the Unliving is fairly conservative in its choices, with most of the bloodlines being based on myths, folklore or fiction like Lamia, Kali, Dracula, Bathory, Chernobog, etc. By contrast, Codex names Heinrich Himmler, Hernado Cortez, Ivan the Terrible, King Leopold II of Belgium, and several infamous serial killers as founders.

I find this to be perhaps the best trope if you're writing prose or other passive fiction, or writing antagonists for the PCs to fight. The premise of "any sufficiently evil git can found a vampiric bloodline" makes it easy to invent new ones when you feel the need. It's flexible and the introduction of a new bloodline keeps players on their toes rather than assuming every antagonist fits a predictable box.

The trope I'm tired of is "cursed with vampirism for crimes."

It makes the higher power doing the "cursing" into either a real dick or utterly clueless.

"I know! I shall punish someone who loves to murder people with eternal life that requires murdering people to sustain and super powers! They'll totally change their ways!"

That's why, for my setting, it's a reward from Hell for their great sins against God and Man. God only permits this evil because He will not deny His creations their free will and because the Devil is "King of This World" until the Second Coming.

But He did have a say in the foundations of Creation that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess (which is why the things of God affect the Damned as they do, and why the forces of Hell seek to trick Men into doing away with the things of God that counter them).

He also takes their evils and spins what good is possible from it (giving ordinary people a chance to grow in virtue in the face of evil and allowing children of monsters to be born with the power needed to oppose them (dhampirs, cambions, changelings, ghost-touched, etc.).

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 28, 2024, 02:56:15 PMThe trope I'm tired of is "cursed with vampirism for crimes."

It makes the higher power doing the "cursing" into either a real dick or utterly clueless.

"I know! I shall punish someone who loves to murder people with eternal life that requires murdering people to sustain and super powers! They'll totally change their ways!"

It's not explained in either what higher power does the damning. I think the author uses it in lieu of an explicit pact with hell as a way to avoid any theological discussions. Everlasting in particular has Christian-style angels who go around doing good deeds and fighting evil, but they themselves state they're not specifically Christian. The setting is a fantasy kitchen sink where a party of good guys is expected to have angels alongside pagan demigods and elves, so it's understandable why the author wouldn't commit to a specifically Christian worldview.