Quote from: Aglondir on September 26, 2024, 10:34:45 PMFor me, that sweet spot is VtM 3rd with house rules. Just returned to it after decades. Would I like a better system? Sure, but the dicepool madness is working Ok. As for the people who ruined it? Vanished from the rear-view mirror. Time has a way of erasing bad memories, I guess.

Tenbones, I'm sure you could make Savage VtM in 3 hours. I'd buy it!

Heh I have given a lot of thought about doing a Savage WoD - all of it. All the splats. The "wall" I run into is what BoxCrayonTales intimates - for all the work *I* would put into it, it would be in my own personal interest as someone who is the process of publishing, of simply "doing my own take" and publish it. Which for me means having all those elements but weighted differently with obviously a different cosmology that hopefully will be better (if not more sparse - one of the issues with WoD in the latter-era was way too overgrown).

This is clearly a "me-problem" in terms of what I'm willing to do with my time. HOWEVER... there is nothing saying I couldn't do my version and then create WoD version from that. Inversely, it might be worthwhile to do that in reverse order... I'll give it some thought.

Vampires and Werewolves as mini-Iconic Frameworks seem to be pretty straightforward. Squeezing all the nuance of the Clans and Tribes could be easily handled with discrete Power lists including Edges and Hindrances.

Mages would need to have Power lists correspond to the assumptions of what the Spheres entail. Otherwise the standard Savage Worlds rules would apply modified by new rules for coincidental/vulgar and Paradox. None of which should be too hard but would require more thought than I'm giving it here.

Changeling - I'll be honest, I'd have to give this a lot of thought. It *could* be actually playable and interchangeable in ways that the original wasn't. I dearly love Changeling: The Lost, but I'd like to err on the wonderous potential from The Dreaming. Again, this would take a lot more thought.

Wraith - same boat. I do like Wraith. But it would require more thought to make meaningful<---this is the secret sauce.

Mummy - I love the Shemsu-Heru conceptually. Mechanically in the original WoD it was a mess. I'd love to take a crack at it with SW. In fact, I think it could easily support itself if contextually handled right without the messy WoD mechanics. SW could make it feel *far* better and more playable.

Paradox might sue you if you're too similar. So my advice is to draw inspiration from public domain. Rather than making a WoD ripoff, make an urban fantasy game. This is what Everlasting, WitchCraft, Fireborn, Nephilim, etc did.

Stop thinking in terms of "how can I copy WoD?" and think "how can I make a fun game using various archetypes from folklore and urban fantasy fiction?" Open your mind to the possibilities.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 27, 2024, 03:23:02 PMParadox might sue you if you're too similar. So my advice is to draw inspiration from public domain. Rather than making a WoD ripoff, make an urban fantasy game. This is what Everlasting, WitchCraft, Fireborn, Nephilim, etc did.

Stop thinking in terms of "how can I copy WoD?" and think "how can I make a fun game using various archetypes from folklore and urban fantasy fiction?" Open your mind to the possibilities.

No, I get it. My goal would not be to copy WoD in my own design. I'm saying that my own design would absolutely stand on its own, but if I wanted to use those mechanical designs to do a nice WoD freebie for the fans, and just release it into the wild under SW, that would be nice in general for people that want to stay in the WoD milieu. Much like Palladium Rifts fans are glomming onto SWRifts. The only difference being I'd do it for free - but not until I'm done doing my own "urban fantasy" thing which I could use for heavy lifting.

I mean, the only thing that sets WoD apart is that they took established mythical monsters, cribbed intensely from Anne Rice and rode the zeitgeist wave. Those concepts weren't original for them. The trick, to pull a card directly from Mark Rein-Hagen's own mantra "Creativity is to hide ones sources" (which was a nod ironically to the fact he didn't even coin that phrase either), is to reframe these concepts into something novel. And more importantly: something fun and playable.

I'm actually kind of laying the groundwork for that now. Without getting too much into the detail, I'm working on a grimdark(ish) fantasy setting where one of the options is for barbaric/semi-barbaric tribes that can take on rituals that inducts them into "werecreature" status. There are big social ramifications to this in and outside the tribe.

The mechanics for the design would operate in the abstract way say WoD Werecreatures operate (multiple forms, ritual spirit magic) but the cosmology and the focus of this aspect of the game is entirely different. Not to mention in this case the genre is entirely different.

Whereas, when I get around to doing Urban Fantasy, I could leverage a lot of these mechanics for the same purpose with tweaks and total reworks for the cosmology and context of the game.

One way to distinguish yourself is to not be grimdark. Emphasize the fantasy in urban fantasy. Everlasting does this: the PC options include mythic hero archetypes, angels, elves, grail questers, and reincarnating wizards.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 27, 2024, 04:57:08 PMOne way to distinguish yourself is to not be grimdark. Emphasize the fantasy in urban fantasy. Everlasting does this: the PC options include mythic hero archetypes, angels, elves, grail questers, and reincarnating wizards.

Very well said. Thanks for saying it and letting it sink into my little brain pan.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on September 27, 2024, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 27, 2024, 04:57:08 PMOne way to distinguish yourself is to not be grimdark. Emphasize the fantasy in urban fantasy. Everlasting does this: the PC options include mythic hero archetypes, angels, elves, grail questers, and reincarnating wizards.

Very well said. Thanks for saying it and letting it sink into my little brain pan.

I also say it for marketing reasons. It's a lot to easier to market something if it's made to appeal to a broad audience, like by being light hearted or actively heroic.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 27, 2024, 06:23:36 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on September 27, 2024, 05:13:58 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 27, 2024, 04:57:08 PMOne way to distinguish yourself is to not be grimdark. Emphasize the fantasy in urban fantasy. Everlasting does this: the PC options include mythic hero archetypes, angels, elves, grail questers, and reincarnating wizards.

Very well said. Thanks for saying it and letting it sink into my little brain pan.

I also say it for marketing reasons. It's a lot to easier to market something if it's made to appeal to a broad audience, like by being light hearted or actively heroic.

I've never thought in terms of marketing, at least when it comes to gaming. If I like it, I like it. Screw what everyone else is doing. I keep forgetting so many think about marketing and the bandwagon that comes along with that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 26, 2024, 08:18:24 PMA lot of people are shallow and only play games that you can easily buy copies of and which have thriving communities. Many of those dead games are not easy to come by and don't have much in the way of communities even if they do. Copyright law prevents fans from reviving and maintaining dead games. Creating retroclones and spiritual successors is expensive. Lots of gamers aren't interested in expending the effort required to create and maintain games.

It's not rocket science. If copyright terms were a reasonable length, say 20-30 years, then fans could maintain all those dead games and share them with new players who otherwise would never be introduced to them.

Instead we're stuck in this rut where Paradox has a stranglehold over the urban fantasy market because nobody cares to compete with their emogoth vomit.

As far as what will develop a thriving community, I think it would be good to look at what is most popular. The best measure I have of that is the "Best-Seller" flag in DriveThruRPG. I've made a spreadsheet of the urban fantasy RPGs from the list.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W-AF-MCRje8pmdrh2zrmaeBCWkFoMPG-018mWu4b8jM

It's interesting to look at which are the best sellers, as far as what might develop a thriving community.

What seems to sell is monster hunters and dark/light superheroes.

This isn't really surprising. The most popular vampire character type is the dark brooding superhero who refuses to hunt the innocent and uses his powers to fight crime. The Dark Prince novels are an entire series of such protagonists, which has been receiving new entries every year or two since the late 90s. Women desire him, men want to be him.

Quote from: tenbones on September 26, 2024, 05:16:34 PMSo I'm curious about those that don't actually play WoD - is it just the system? Or is there some need to have the latest edition be the best apotheosis of the concept?

I still have my first ed Vampire and think first ed Wraith. Picked both up out of curiosity at Gen Con way back. Later picked up Werewolf, and one of my players got me Mummy. Changeling and Hunter are the two know near nothing about. DMed Werewolf the most, But had the most fun with Wraith.

All that came to a grinding hault when started having trouble with WW staff.

I'll stick with pre  nWOD as it is the better setting, and feels the better system too, all around. Everyone I know pretty much feels the same. They disliked nWOD, the setting and/or the mechanics.

A game like Mummy where the PC's are immortals hunting other monsters of legend which have their own societies is a real winning concept.

The problem with the original Mummy game was in its attempt to gamify Egyptian mysticism and cosmology, they made it so byzantine with weird mechanical oddities that it was unplayable. Conceptually cool as fuck. But a mess mechanically.

Skirting the obvious Highlander/Scion thing where you're just immortal for other reasons, Mummy ala Ramses Damned could be a much cooler vibe. It's a wonder that it was never made into a movie. It would have had all that pulp gloriousness and potential for a cool franchise. Now? I don't trust anyone to do it.

Quote from: tenbones on October 01, 2024, 12:24:59 AMA game like Mummy where the PC's are immortals hunting other monsters of legend which have their own societies is a real winning concept.

The problem with the original Mummy game was in its attempt to gamify Egyptian mysticism and cosmology, they made it so byzantine with weird mechanical oddities that it was unplayable. Conceptually cool as fuck. But a mess mechanically.

Skirting the obvious Highlander/Scion thing where you're just immortal for other reasons, Mummy ala Ramses Damned could be a much cooler vibe. It's a wonder that it was never made into a movie. It would have had all that pulp gloriousness and potential for a cool franchise. Now? I don't trust anyone to do it.

Mummy was a great concept but terribly implemented.

I'm really surprised that nobody has swooped in and pulled a Paizo. The original White Wolf hasn't existed as a company for a decade, all the original writers have moved on... why hasn't any publisher released a new urban fantasy game to takeover the market? The original game is over three decades old now. The zeitgeist has long since moved on. It's as good time as any for a competitor to step in.

Probably BECAUSE the Zeitgeist has moved on.

It's sorta like how the public generally prefers sci-fi in good times and leans towards fantasy in harder times... the sort of urban fantasy characterized by Vampire needs a certain environment in order to thrive.

Specifically, it was easy to fake angst about fake existential crises when the economy was strong, the Cold War was over, and America had resurrected its image of military strength via the first Gulf War.

When the economy sucks, crime is up, and our leaders seem determined to start WW3 then nihilistic dystopian settings akin to the WoD lose a lot of their appeal.

I think in the present Zeitgeist games like Delta Green are probably the logical successors to the WoD.