Quote from: yosemitemike on September 23, 2024, 06:01:23 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 22, 2024, 08:40:32 PMunfortunately there's no legal PDF

There is now.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/46/visionary-entertainment-studio

I said The Magician's Companion is missing. They only have up to the immortal codex.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 23, 2024, 09:22:25 AMI said The Magician's Companion is missing. They only have up to the immortal codex.

Ah, I misunderstood.  I thought you meant the line in general.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 22, 2024, 10:05:52 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 22, 2024, 08:40:32 PMThere must be so many cool game concepts I've seen that died without ever developing a following. It's so stupid. Ttrpgs have infinite potential, but it feels like very few people actually want to explore that potential.

I think that's probably on of the biggest problems in TTRPGs. That is to say, that many people won't actually ever leave their comfort zone. I always feel that looking at lots of different material will give you a new perspective on gaming, even if you don't like the game per se.

Even bad games can still ignite some original creativity that you many not have seen without looking beyond the mirror so-to-speak.

Exactly. Gamers are unwilling to leave their comfort zones.

That's why I'm so fond of universal and subuniversal systems like GURPS or d20 Modern. d20 Modern's plethora of sample settings introduced me to a broad selection of genres that I otherwise would never have found if I had just stuck with Faerun, Night City, or New Orleans.

I suspect the reason for this has a big part to do with ttrpgs requiring a lot of investment compared to watching a movie, reading a book, or even playing a video game. But I digress.

This is an ongoing frustration I have with ttrpgs. That's why I decided to go into writing prose instead of writing games.

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 23, 2024, 09:24:26 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 23, 2024, 09:22:25 AMI said The Magician's Companion is missing. They only have up to the immortal codex.

Ah, I misunderstood.  I thought you meant the line in general.

On the bright side, it's probably really easy to make a retroclone or spiritual successor. Everlasting draws heavily on folklore and public domain resources, so you could easily create a very close approximation without running afoul of copyright. I know a fan who has one on the backburner.

The only splat that seems to be original are the gargoyles. They're like the gargoyles in "I, Frankenstein", but they're also sin-eaters. They recharge their magic batteries by touching sinners, causing a "curse of absolution" to punish the sinner for whatever their sins are. So they're basically ghost rider.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on September 21, 2024, 07:43:36 PMIt felt so crammed full of bizarre concepts, while all trying to be shoehorned together with one generic system which couldn't really handle it.

Not to mention that the world felt ridiculous. Half the time I expected to run into a demon or mummy who ran the local newspaper kiosk or some shit.

I think this was WW trying to cater to the fans instead of correcting their misconception that the settings were somehow all connected.

Initially they were not and the books even told you that they were not. They shared a theme and kinds-sorta setting. But the WOD of Werewolf was not the same WOD of Vampire.

At some point that got tossed out the window and all of a sudden WW is trying to stitch these deliberately incompatible settings together and well. You know how that went.

It was always a silly strategy. The urban fantasy genre inherently lends itself to diverse "kitchen sink" settings. Any series that limit themselves to one or two archetypes early on will inevitably add more as books or seasons progress. Even WoD did this with its splats, adding increasingly bizarre concepts as they went.

Like, the ecoterrorists and technophobes haven't aged well at all.

Anyone have a Kickstarter version of V20 they want to sell? (I don't want a POD copy.)

I glanced over drivethrurpg again and noticed that there's been some new additions whenever I search for vampires, werewolves, etc. Moonsuits and briefcases, paint the town red, nightbound, myth-stakes... Most of these are quickstarts for games still in development. A few are low budget one-offs.

Maybe it's because I'm old and disillusioned, but none of these really stand out to me. I think that about pretty much everything nowadays, so maybe that's just me.

Adding it to the list: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1umoHUYUskl-oXdXM-pg1D_k8tYu7XysQiobjP4mk5l8/pub

One of the things that still puzzles me is the notion that WoD conceptually is now dogshit because of whatever is the newest iteration of the game is dogshit.

There is a *point* where the game is great and inspired - why not simply play the game at that point and have fun? My problem with the game has to do with the system *and* I don't like the people that ruined it.

I can still apply the same thing to D&D. But I can also point clearly where D&D and I have a deep connection conceptually. I still use that to inform my D&D Fantasy games as a standalone genre, but I don't use the system.

So I'm curious about those that don't actually play WoD - is it just the system? Or is there some need to have the latest edition be the best apotheosis of the concept?

I do intend to run WoD again someday, but it'll likely be with a new group or with a new system. Maybe both.

My advice is to find or make a new game that you would enjoy playing and discussing. I'm currently working on a game involving investigating cryptids, conspiracies, etc inspired by the various games of the 80s, 90s, and 00s that explored such space but died out because they weren't Call of Cthulhu.

Quote from: tenbones on September 26, 2024, 05:16:34 PMOne of the things that still puzzles me is the notion that WoD conceptually is now dogshit because of whatever is the newest iteration of the game is dogshit.

There is a *point* where the game is great and inspired - why not simply play the game at that point and have fun? My problem with the game has to do with the system *and* I don't like the people that ruined it.

Yeah. I don't have anything against new systems per se if that's what someone enjoys. What the community really needs, though, is more people playing the myriad of excellent systems that already exist. Adding new systems is just making a thicker pile of "dead" games.

Personally, I did play a Changeling: the Dreaming (1E) game early this month, but I've never been a big WoD fan.

I do plan on playing more of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer RPG, which is one of my favorite iterations of Eden's Unisystem. I also liked Witchcraft, and I might give it another look.

A lot of people are shallow and only play games that you can easily buy copies of and which have thriving communities. Many of those dead games are not easy to come by and don't have much in the way of communities even if they do. Copyright law prevents fans from reviving and maintaining dead games. Creating retroclones and spiritual successors is expensive. Lots of gamers aren't interested in expending the effort required to create and maintain games.

It's not rocket science. If copyright terms were a reasonable length, say 20-30 years, then fans could maintain all those dead games and share them with new players who otherwise would never be introduced to them.

Instead we're stuck in this rut where Paradox has a stranglehold over the urban fantasy market because nobody cares to compete with their emogoth vomit.

Quote from: tenbones on September 26, 2024, 05:16:34 PM[...]
So I'm curious about those that don't actually play WoD - is it just the system? Or is there some need to have the latest edition be the best apotheosis of the concept?

I do intend to run WoD again someday, but it'll likely be with a new group or with a new system. Maybe both.

Yeah, I'm perfectly fine playing houseruled older editions. I never got the need to play the newest thing because it is the newest thing. Even the excuse that shiny new thing popularity provides more players doesn't really sell me.

Seems like neighbors trying to keep up with the Jones'.

Any thoughts on "The Vampyre Hack?"

Looks like OSR plus VtM with the serial numbers filed off. And a lot of the "usage die":

QuoteRoll your starting Hit Points: your Hit Die (HD) +4. The size of your HD is determined by your vampyre Tribe.

You also have a Wealth UD (p39), a Frenzy UD (p36) which measures your bestial nature, a Flock UD which describes the mortals you can feed from (p30) and a Security UD (p37) which measures how safe you are from enemies.

Two of these UD start at d6 and two at d4. You can lower one d6 to start at d4 and in return raise the other d6 to d8. The description of each Tribe lists some default values for these Dice.

Your starting Blood UD is a d4 and your Corruption UD is d6.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/430585/the-vampyre-hack

Quote from: tenbones on September 26, 2024, 05:16:34 PMThere is a *point* where the game is great and inspired - why not simply play the game at that point and have fun? My problem with the game has to do with the system *and* I don't like the people that ruined it.

For me, that sweet spot is VtM 3rd with house rules. Just returned to it after decades. Would I like a better system? Sure, but the dicepool madness is working Ok. As for the people who ruined it? Vanished from the rear-view mirror. Time has a way of erasing bad memories, I guess.

Tenbones, I'm sure you could make Savage VtM in 3 hours. I'd buy it!

Quote from: Aglondir on September 26, 2024, 10:19:32 PMAny thoughts on "The Vampyre Hack?"

Looks like OSR plus VtM with the serial numbers filed off. And a lot of the "usage die":

QuoteRoll your starting Hit Points: your Hit Die (HD) +4. The size of your HD is determined by your vampyre Tribe.

You also have a Wealth UD (p39), a Frenzy UD (p36) which measures your bestial nature, a Flock UD which describes the mortals you can feed from (p30) and a Security UD (p37) which measures how safe you are from enemies.

Two of these UD start at d6 and two at d4. You can lower one d6 to start at d4 and in return raise the other d6 to d8. The description of each Tribe lists some default values for these Dice.

Your starting Blood UD is a d4 and your Corruption UD is d6.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/430585/the-vampyre-hack

I bought it and read it. The whole time I was thinking "why make this bizzaro ripoff when you could make something original? The writer clearly has the creativity but is deliberately shackling himself."