Quote from: Chris24601 on October 28, 2024, 02:56:15 PMThe trope I'm tired of is "cursed with vampirism for crimes."

It makes the higher power doing the "cursing" into either a real dick or utterly clueless.

"I know! I shall punish someone who loves to murder people with eternal life that requires murdering people to sustain and super powers! They'll totally change their ways!"

Yeah that one bugs me too. But usually vampires, at least classical ones, are more spontaneous undead. They just spring up... like weeds...

But I've seen a few other depictions of undead of various sorts that effectively turn some wrong-doer into a horrendous plague upon the land.

Quite a few vampire depictions in media show it as an absolute corruption though which leaves no room for redemption. Anyone turned becomes flat out evil.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 28, 2024, 07:38:07 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 28, 2024, 02:56:15 PMThe trope I'm tired of is "cursed with vampirism for crimes."

It makes the higher power doing the "cursing" into either a real dick or utterly clueless.

"I know! I shall punish someone who loves to murder people with eternal life that requires murdering people to sustain and super powers! They'll totally change their ways!"

It's not explained in either what higher power does the damning. I think the author uses it in lieu of an explicit pact with hell as a way to avoid any theological discussions. Everlasting in particular has Christian-style angels who go around doing good deeds and fighting evil, but they themselves state they're not specifically Christian. The setting is a fantasy kitchen sink where a party of good guys is expected to have angels alongside pagan demigods and elves, so it's understandable why the author wouldn't commit to a specifically Christian worldview.

I suspect sometimes the power of the curse is effectively a literal genie and carries out exactly what was said to do. Especially when the one calling the curse is a mortal.

The curse is very much related to the power of transformational restraint. It's better elucidated in the book East of Eden, where the relief of God's curse is a blessing is not "Thou [Cain] shalt have power over darkness" but a mistranslation of the Hebrew that more accords to "mayest" and "one's own wickedness" as in "Thou mayest have power over one's own evil." In a word the blessing is: self-restraint.

Hence why I thought it was all the more magnificent to have the Paths of Heaven (Dark Ages), Path of Humanitas (most of VtM), Path of Community (Ashirra), and Kuei-Jin Dharmas, be the restraint -- BE THE BLESSING -- to rein in their beast and have a modicum of a self-aware second-chance at life. Granted that'd expect people to be familiar with a bit more theology and literature than is now expected, but I grokked it immediately perhaps due to my humanities exposure. Overall it reinforces my view that a major game focal point is the humans, morality, and humanity.

But Vampions is far more lowest common denominator alluring to the broader populace. Remember, each of the sects see themselves as the "good guy" and yet each succumbs to their inner evils in their own peculiar way. The argument is how do you Self-Restrain in the face of temptation that WILL consume you. Well, far too many players want pew-pew powers and little to no interest in responsibility; the RPG play they came for is a power fantasy clad in macabre trappings.

Same paging expectations is so important before running a game.

So, I've been brainstorming out Hunter and opposing organizations to fill in my setting.

First, we have the Catholic Order of St. Joseph. Seems fairly innocuous with a symbol of a stylized hammer and three oversized nails. But, if you're not Catholic you might not know that one of St. Joseph's titles is "The Terror of Demons" and those "nails" are actually stakes. They're your classic secret Vatican-backed monster hunter organization.

Next up, we have Project Ultraviolet; a secret agency within the Deep State dedicated to eliminating "Malicious Entity Influence" (as close as the hyper-secular security state can get to admitting there are literal demons without inducing terminal levels of cognitive dissonance). They get all the superspy, cybernetic and biomod toys to play with as they basically play MiB to stop evil spirits from preying on the citizens. A huge portion of their job is inter-institutional operations against other silos of the Deep State since evil spirits seem especially drawn to those with power and authority.

The opposite number for them is GASLIGHT, a Deep State silo whose leaders are servants of Hell tasked with cleaning up signs of the supernatural world by any means necessary. All the same toys but with a focus on wetworks, blackmail and destruction of evidence.

In a similar vein we have the Covenant for Global Cooperation; an NGO/think tank that recruits members from "the brightest minds" in business and government to push their agenda of breaking down barriers in society. Their inner circle doesn't have a name, but is called The Coven by outsiders who've learned of it; a group of 13 powerful witches and warlocks who want to break down barriers alright; the very gates of Hell so that demonic influence can run rampant upon the Earth believing they will be rewarded with power over the Earth for a millennia.

One of its major contributors is Blackguard, a megacorp international hedge fund with its fingers in nearly every publicly held corporation and whose founder is the embodiment of greed* among the Damned.

Not all business is evil though. On the flipside is Sophia Enterprises, a private R&D company behind a number of next generation computer and biomedical systems (source of some of the Cyberpunk tech) whose founder started noticing the "Malicious Entity Influence" in several fields they were exploring (specifically the existence of noncorporeal entities... i.e. spirits) and started up a division devoted to investigating potential instances and "managing" them accordingly. Basically an upscale Ghostbusters.

On a more local level there's Stakeout; the unofficial name for a group of police who've "seen stuff" and are coordinating as best they're able among themselves and locals who've also seen the supernatural to fight off the monstrous influence in their city. The name derived from the double entrandre they covered their actions with... "going on a stakeout" for putting a stake into the heart of a vampire.

Contrasting them is Familia de Sangre, a criminal cartel devoted to crime (particularly drugs and human trafficking - the latter for supplying victims for the Damned who won't be missed). The spreading of human misery is the ultimate goal of their Damned masters and they reward the most devoted with their "Blessing" (ie. The Curse).

Also on the side of the wicked that I don't have names for yet are a false non-denominational church preaching a combo of the prosperity gospel and tolerance is the highest good, some version of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (working name based on an old joke from my Mage campaign is the New World Order of Hermes) and an expy for the Freemasons with a secret inner circle with a direct line to Hell via ritual demon summoning.

I figure I need a few more Hunter organizations as well; since there's currently only the Catholic, a government op, a private business, and an unofficial band of police as examples.

* Greed being the vice that grants the Damned control over the material world... i.e. classic sorcery.

I'm doing something similar for my conspiracy thriller and urban fantasy settings.

My conspiracy thriller setting is very much X-Files inspired, with a kitchen sink of aliens, secret societies, demons, cryptids, and multiple magic systems all operating at odds with one another. The PCs are expected to work for a "good" organization like a private think tank or an ancient chivalric order. Plenty of villainous orgs exist, like the "real" Satanic Church, the Knights Templar, the Assassins, the Rosicrucians, and the New World Order. The premise is that the various loony conspiracy theories being shared online are all true, albeit inaccurate. For example, the USA political system is heavily infiltrated by multiple ancient conspiracies and alien races operating at cross-purposes, explaining why the government has become so ineffectual and self-destructive.

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 29, 2024, 08:27:39 AMBut Vampions is far more lowest common denominator alluring to the broader populace.

I want to address this directly.

The games as written are supposed to be tortured angst fests. At least according to the people I talked to here, most groups seem to play it as dark superheroes. Not because the game rules and setting are remotely suited for that (they're not), but because they don't have any other options.

I think a game that deliberately caters to the dark superheroes crowd could work. That's something that I'd like to do with my urban fantasy settings, in addition to light superheroes like angels and so forth.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 29, 2024, 02:33:51 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on October 29, 2024, 08:27:39 AMBut Vampions is far more lowest common denominator alluring to the broader populace.

I want to address this directly.

The games as written are supposed to be tortured angst fests. At least according to the people I talked to here, most groups seem to play it as dark superheroes. Not because the game rules and setting are remotely suited for that (they're not), but because they don't have any other options.

I think a game that deliberately caters to the dark superheroes crowd could work. That's something that I'd like to do with my urban fantasy settings, in addition to light superheroes like angels and so forth.

You can overlap to some degree. At many points, the X-Men comics could be considered tortured angst fests featuring superheroes. I've seen supers RPGs run like X-Men, so...

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 29, 2024, 11:49:04 AMSo, I've been brainstorming out Hunter and opposing organizations to fill in my setting.

First, we have the Catholic Order of St. Joseph. Seems fairly innocuous with a symbol of a stylized hammer and three oversized nails. But, if you're not Catholic you might not know that one of St. Joseph's titles is "The Terror of Demons" and those "nails" are actually stakes. They're your classic secret Vatican-backed monster hunter organization.

Next up, we have Project Ultraviolet; a secret agency within the Deep State dedicated to eliminating "Malicious Entity Influence" (as close as the hyper-secular security state can get to admitting there are literal demons without inducing terminal levels of cognitive dissonance). They get all the superspy, cybernetic and biomod toys to play with as they basically play MiB to stop evil spirits from preying on the citizens. A huge portion of their job is inter-institutional operations against other silos of the Deep State since evil spirits seem especially drawn to those with power and authority.

The opposite number for them is GASLIGHT, a Deep State silo whose leaders are servants of Hell tasked with cleaning up signs of the supernatural world by any means necessary. All the same toys but with a focus on wetworks, blackmail and destruction of evidence.

In a similar vein we have the Covenant for Global Cooperation; an NGO/think tank that recruits members from "the brightest minds" in business and government to push their agenda of breaking down barriers in society. Their inner circle doesn't have a name, but is called The Coven by outsiders who've learned of it; a group of 13 powerful witches and warlocks who want to break down barriers alright; the very gates of Hell so that demonic influence can run rampant upon the Earth believing they will be rewarded with power over the Earth for a millennia.

One of its major contributors is Blackguard, a megacorp international hedge fund with its fingers in nearly every publicly held corporation and whose founder is the embodiment of greed* among the Damned.

Not all business is evil though. On the flipside is Sophia Enterprises, a private R&D company behind a number of next generation computer and biomedical systems (source of some of the Cyberpunk tech) whose founder started noticing the "Malicious Entity Influence" in several fields they were exploring (specifically the existence of noncorporeal entities... i.e. spirits) and started up a division devoted to investigating potential instances and "managing" them accordingly. Basically an upscale Ghostbusters.

On a more local level there's Stakeout; the unofficial name for a group of police who've "seen stuff" and are coordinating as best they're able among themselves and locals who've also seen the supernatural to fight off the monstrous influence in their city. The name derived from the double entrandre they covered their actions with... "going on a stakeout" for putting a stake into the heart of a vampire.

Contrasting them is Familia de Sangre, a criminal cartel devoted to crime (particularly drugs and human trafficking - the latter for supplying victims for the Damned who won't be missed). The spreading of human misery is the ultimate goal of their Damned masters and they reward the most devoted with their "Blessing" (ie. The Curse).

Also on the side of the wicked that I don't have names for yet are a false non-denominational church preaching a combo of the prosperity gospel and tolerance is the highest good, some version of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (working name based on an old joke from my Mage campaign is the New World Order of Hermes) and an expy for the Freemasons with a secret inner circle with a direct line to Hell via ritual demon summoning.

I figure I need a few more Hunter organizations as well; since there's currently only the Catholic, a government op, a private business, and an unofficial band of police as examples.

* Greed being the vice that grants the Damned control over the material world... i.e. classic sorcery.

I like it. It has Hunter: The Vigil vibes.

I think the Kindred TV series actually did a rather good job of depicting a vampire society as something at least half-assed functional. Rather than the usual depictions that would never have lasted as long as they show due to all the vampires or whatevers being raging idiots.

Quote from: Omega on October 30, 2024, 02:11:07 AMI think the Kindred TV series actually did a rather good job of depicting a vampire society as something at least half-assed functional. Rather than the usual depictions that would never have lasted as long as they show due to all the vampires or whatevers being raging idiots.

Once you accept that vampire societies are just another type of organized crime it all falls into place.

They bribe those in power to cover up their crimes, leech off the population of their territory and engage in struggles with rival crime groups for control of their particular vice.

The smart ones make deals and alliances with their neighboring criminals and treat the population of their territory as a precious commodity (ie. poaching and killing the livestock by others isn't something you can tolerate without looking weak to your fellow criminals).

They even have an initiation ritual to become one of the "made men."

Quote from: Aglondir on October 30, 2024, 12:33:40 AMI like it. It has Hunter: The Vigil vibes.

It's Hunter: The Vigil with a singular Christian cosmology. Which is great, because it means I don't have to compete with Chris when writing my own kitchen sink thing. While my take is gonna have Christian elements like PC angels and antichrist candidates that have been baptized and use their powers for good a la Merlin, I'm also gonna have stuff like space aliens and reptoids that clearly don't fit into a Christian cosmology.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 30, 2024, 08:20:49 AMOnce you accept that vampire societies are just another type of organized crime it all falls into place.

I like to take inspiration from the Blade movies and have vampires involved in industries like pharma, private security and banking.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 30, 2024, 08:20:49 AMThey even have an initiation ritual to become one of the "made men."

Speaking of, something I like adding when I'm writing vampires is to make the turning into a literal magical ritual. It's not enough to inject someone with vampire venom, you need to perform a necromantic ritual that requires intent and sacrifice.

While I'm here Chris, I have this idea for dhampirs that I'd like to get your input.

Now usually dhampirs are written more or less identically to your typical rogue half-vampire. Michael Emerson, Adrian Tepes, Eric Brooks, and Rayne are more similar than they are different. Like a vampire version of Merlin, they have the powers of a vampire (to whatever degree) and use it to fight vampires. They're dark superheroes.

My idea is that a dhampir instead serves as the conveyor for a curse, a punishment for vampires. They appear completely human and ordinary to vampire senses, yet their aura irresistibly attracts vampires to obsess over them and taste their blood. This is a trap: the moment that blood touches the vampire's lips, then they are cursed and doomed. The exact curse varies by vampire, but it strips them of the emotional qualities they value most. They go mad and either destroy themselves or give others easy opportunity to do so. It's not a nice way to go.

Of course, the two can be combined.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 30, 2024, 03:52:11 PMWhile I'm here Chris, I have this idea for dhampirs that I'd like to get your input.

Now usually dhampirs are written more or less identically to your typical rogue half-vampire. Michael Emerson, Adrian Tepes, Eric Brooks, and Rayne are more similar than they are different. Like a vampire version of Merlin, they have the powers of a vampire (to whatever degree) and use it to fight vampires. They're dark superheroes.

My idea is that a dhampir instead serves as the conveyor for a curse, a punishment for vampires. They appear completely human and ordinary to vampire senses, yet their aura irresistibly attracts vampires to obsess over them and taste their blood. This is a trap: the moment that blood touches the vampire's lips, then they are cursed and doomed. The exact curse varies by vampire, but it strips them of the emotional qualities they value most. They go mad and either destroy themselves or give others easy opportunity to do so. It's not a nice way to go.

Of course, the two can be combined.

That sounds exactly, nearly word-for-word, like the Requiem version of dhampirs.

As an element in a story, particularly for a vampire protagonist, it's fine and even clever.

However, this is for a game and it's a very passive ability for something Hunter-focused. It would be a fairly disappointing character option if that's ALL they're able to do compared to say, the Angel PC that you mentioned.

Similarly, it's not exactly the best fit for a group focused game since for it to work presumably requires the dhampir to be in a position where it's reasonable for the vampire to bite them... which is unlikely to occur if there's also an angel and sorcerer present.

Now, I've done similar things with one of my WoD dhampir PCs, giving them the toxic blood, fist of God, and unbondable merits such that were basically a supernatural antibody against the vampires (in addition to dots of Potence and other disciplines) and their ability to take and recover from punishment like virtually nothing else in the WoD.

I'm thinking of something similar for my children; each getting particular resistances or counters to the powers their parent type is known for.

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 30, 2024, 07:57:03 PMThat sounds exactly, nearly word-for-word, like the Requiem version of dhampirs.

It is. I was wondering if anyone would catch that.

You're right. It works better for passive fiction or a vampire protagonist campaign than a hunter campaign.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on October 31, 2024, 11:13:56 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on October 30, 2024, 07:57:03 PMThat sounds exactly, nearly word-for-word, like the Requiem version of dhampirs.

It is. I was wondering if anyone would catch that.

You're right. It works better for passive fiction or a vampire protagonist campaign than a hunter campaign.

I'd also consider that Michael Emerson, Adrian Tepes, Eric Brooks, and Rayne being more similar than different is actually a bit of a boon for game design as anything you can tag as a common element across multiple sources is both pervasive and generic enough you can apply to your setting with abandon as the public domain elements they are.

Also, thanks to the Rayne reference I realized I'd left the Thule Society out of my notes. Ariosophy is exactly the sort of satanic philosophy I could build a villain group around.