I've been asked to play in a Hunter: the Reckoning game at my local game store. The store doesn't actually carry any WoD products, but they say they will get some "soon" since this Hunter game is starting.

I've been trying to decide if I will enjoy this game or not, and have asked on a couple of message boards to see what folks think of WoD in general, and Hunter in specific. So far, crickets. This is making me wonder if anyone plays World of Darkness anymore. Used to be that game line was all over game stores, but in the last few years I've seen pretty much nothing. Well, one copy of the new Vampire was around for a while.

Anyone have recent experience with WoD games? Anything I should know about them if I decide to play at the store?

New (as in V5-era) or Old (as in V20 and all the Revised editions)?

New era Hunter is basically a trash version of Hunter the Vigil with an explicit "all the organized hunters are evil and you aren't allowed to be a member" rule because all PCs must be sad sack losers in the V5-era. I would actively avoid that game and anyone interested in it like they were bearing the plague.

Revised-era Hunter was a kinda gonzo "you've been empowered by the divine powers to punch monsters" type deal and is much more fun.

For more down to earth type Hunters I'd say either try to convince them to run Hunter the Vigil (everything the V5-era HtR tries to sell itself as... only it actually delivers) or, failing that, V20 Hunters Hunted.

Funny you should ask!

After a 25-year hiatus, I joined a OWoD game. I never thought I'd go back (the settings are played out, the dice-pool mechanic is wonky, etc.) but it's actually been surprisingly fun. So much time has passed that it seems like a new thing.

What do I think of OWoD?

I think it works best when you stick to one gameline, and explore it's themes and setting, rather than using all of the gamelines to create a "kitchen sink urban fantasy" experience. Although that always seemed to be more popular. Best value for the money is to get one of the 20th Anniversary PDFs. Each one is hundreds of pages long.

What do I think of Hunter?

First choice is to decide if you want to play Normals or People with Powers. If you want to go Normals, you don't need really need any books other than one of the cores, and the character creation rules for mortals which you can probably find online. The gist of it is mortals get less dots to spend than the supernatural splats. If you go this route, keep in mind that humans don't have supernatural healing, so recovering 5 health levels is going to take a LONG time.

If you want to go PwP (which I think is far more interesting) you have two choices: Hunter The Reckoning (the orange book from 1999) or Hunter the Vigil (the green book from the NWoD.) I like both. Reckoning has different "creeds" that provide unique powers granted by supernatural beings called the "Messengers" which I always equated with angels. It gives the game a mysterious occult feel that's rich with theme.

Vigil has a more "DaVinci Code meets the X-files" feel. The PCs can join organizations that grant supernatural powers, advanced science, ancient artifacts, etc.   

Does anyone play the World of Darkness anymore?

I once saw some metrics for the Vampire 5E sales, and it surprised me. So I assume people are playing that, but I don't have any data to back it up. I have no knowledge of Hunter 5th edition. I've read the PCs are mortals without powers. My gut feeling is I don't need a new book for that, especially since I have more than enough orange and green books on my shelf.

World of Darkness is one of those things that had its peak of popularity a long time ago but is still kept alive by a core group of die-hard fans.  People still play it and new products are still being made.  It's just nowhere near as popular as it was back in the 90s. 

 

Quote from: Aglondir on September 16, 2024, 05:16:30 PMI think it works best when you stick to one gameline, and explore it's themes and setting, rather than using all of the gamelines to create a "kitchen sink urban fantasy" experience. Although that always seemed to be more popular.

I think people kept trying this because it kept seeming like it could be a thing at the surface level. But then you look deeper and you see each branch is incompatible either in lore or in mechanics somehow. Primarily lore. But trying to combine say Wraith and Werewolf was not really going to pan out for example without alot of tinkering.

Not WoD. But I am particularly fond of WW's superhero RPG Aberrant.

Quote from: Omega on September 17, 2024, 06:33:46 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on September 16, 2024, 05:16:30 PMI think it works best when you stick to one gameline, and explore it's themes and setting, rather than using all of the gamelines to create a "kitchen sink urban fantasy" experience. Although that always seemed to be more popular.

I think people kept trying this because it kept seeming like it could be a thing at the surface level. But then you look deeper and you see each branch is incompatible either in lore or in mechanics somehow. Primarily lore. But trying to combine say Wraith and Werewolf was not really going to pan out for example without alot of tinkering.

My experience is that Vampire the Masquerade works best with Lupines (cursed bloodthirtsy monsters living in the wilds... I got them to work as a variant vampire who must start with four dots in protean, only loses all their disciplines during the daylight and feeds on flesh instead of blood to restore its "blood" pool) rather than Garou, and Sorcerers (linear magic) rather than Mages. Wraiths incorporate rather seamlessly, but changelings are completely incompatible. Demons as presented in VtM splats fit the themes, but ironically, Demon the Fallen, despite having surface similarities doesn't work at all.

Hunters of either variety also fit nicely into the Vampire corner (the supernatural ones are essentially manifesting a type of True Faith) and the Hunters Hunted (psychics, hedge magic, and such) variety was from a Vampire supplement to begin with. The original version of Mummy (before they made them their own hardcover and completely borked their lore) also fit well within the Vampire-verse corner.

Werewolf plays well with nothing. It's core premise is too Dog-matic (ba dum bum tish) to play with the metaphysics of anything else.

On paper Mage with its belief creates reality metaphysics would seem to be able to incorporate everything, but in practice it's fundamental premise just melts off anything unique from the other lines and keeps only the mechanics intact... vampires are just bygone thaumivores who drink blood to feed on the quintessence of others, etc. Its probably best for a general crossover if no one cares about deeper themes, but these days I consider its underlying Gnostic themes more disruptive to my enjoyment so would never run it these days.

Changeling barely plays well with itself and Wraith is generally so removed that while it can participate in some of the other splats' settings without undermining the Wraith cosmology, others coming into their primary setting isn't very feasible.

Hunter the Reckoning fits best with Vampire, least well with Werewolf, and are probably could be arranged to have the least problems with Mage, but once you're talking PCs they may as well just be Mages with a HtR paradigm or they'll be third class at best.

Demon is basically a version of Vampire that doesn't play well with others both on power scaling or theme. It's another Werewolf basically.

These days I'm futzing on my own ruleset and cosmology that probably veers closest to the Vampire-verse above, only from the PC perspective of being a hunter and might have a dash of cyberpunk just for flavor (near future dystopian elements for its darker themes rather than aping WoD's "Gothic Punk").

Paradox has effectively killed all the momentum that WoD started building again when OnyxPath (The original white wolf writers before CCP bought the rights to the name 'White Wolf' and then sold it to Paradox) started up the 20th Anniversary editions.

Each and everyone of the 20th Anniversaries editions was a phenomenal success that updated the original games, codified all the previous material and gave room for a whole new line of supplements.

Onyx Path even had plans to do what they called a "Proper" 4th edition for Vampire the Masquerade, based entirely off of how well the 20th anniversary did and the demand was there.

Then CCP sold the rights to Paradox.

Paradox made the executive decision to make a new "5th" edition for Vampire the Masquerade. What happened to the 4th? Oh they decided 20th Anniversary edition was the true "4th edition" to the game.

Paradox didn't use any of the Onyx Path staff to write the edition. They hired Kenneth Hite to do the system, and they had a European Larper handle the setting.

Suffice to say, 5th edition was divisive as hell. The setting changes are wildly unpopular with the original audience and the system itself nerfed Vampires *HARD* which takes away from the power fantasy of you know... Being a fucking Vampire.

6 years on, 5th edition has it's audience, but it's nowhere near what 20th anniversary had. The only other 'games' that have been released are Werewolf the Apocalpyse 5th edition (EVEN MORE DIVISIVE than Vampire was) and Hunter... which has nothing to do with any previous version of Hunter.

Paradox has said there is no plans to even try and release a 5th edition of Mage. Renegade Studios handle almost all of "White Wolf" stuff these days. They briefly hired Justin Achilli to oversee Werewolf 5e and even he ended up leaving the project before it was finished.

In all of this, Paradox also got the rights to the 'New World of Darkness' (renamed 'Chronicles of Darkness' to differentiate the two) Paradox stopped allowing Onyx Path to make Chronicle of Darkness games, because even those were outselling their version of the Original World of Darkness.

Which brings us to today. World of Darkness was on the verge of a new renaissance which was effectively killed and curtailed. Chronicles of Darkness isn't even being made anymore. Paradox doesn't want the competition.

The "World of Darkness" is being written and made by people who have absolutely no history or ties to any of the original games... The system was designed by a guy who prefers Indie systems so has a ton of fiddly bits that make it more complicated. It's not a dead game, but it's probably only going to limp along until possibly a 6th edition and a system change.

In all of this though, Onyx Path and the original WoD writers aren't taking it laying down. They have a new game they've been working on to fill the "Monsters among us" conspiracy, urban horror genre.

It's called "Curseborn" and honestly the setting is really cool. October is when it's Kickstarter starts.

As for WoD? I'll probably always run 20th anniversary games, but I won't touch anything else Paradox makes.

Good synopsis Orphan.

I do not play any WoD anymore. I ran a lot of WoD all the way through NWoD, Vampire, Mage, Wereworlf, Hunter. When NWoD dropped I liked the system, I did not like the cosmology of Werewolf *at all* though there were elements of it I did like. I adored Hunter: The Vigil and Changeling the Lost. I liked Requiem because it was pretty open-ended and I could import all the OWoD elements I wanted into the game.

I dropped out of WoD in general when the writers of NWoD started to go insane and the woke bullshit started picking up steam outside of the games themselves (which are fairly clean). I simply stopped supporting them because they were the insufferable morons we now know them to be. I figured I owned all the WoD material I'd ever need so it was easy to walk away.

I did buy the 20th Anniversary Vampire, Mage and Werewolf. Very happy with those products, but I've only used them a couple of times. Still not a fan of the system. They're definitely nostalgia purchases. Returning to the setting was fun, but that system was as bad as it ever was even with the cleanup, even with my years of experience in getting around it.

I looked at 5th ed, it looked like a shitshow from the jump. I had *zero* interest in the narrative. Less interest in the shitty mechanics.

WoD is largely dead to me. I've considered translating it to Savage Worlds, but haven't had time to dedicate to it. And when I think about it, I'm always thinking - "why translate WoD to Savage Worlds, and not do my own WoD-style Savage Worlds setting and sell it?"...

WoD exists only as a mirage from my gaming past. Beautiful, but empty.

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 16, 2024, 10:25:12 PMWorld of Darkness is one of those things that had its peak of popularity a long time ago but is still kept alive by a core group of die-hard fans.  People still play it and new products are still being made.  It's just nowhere near as popular as it was back in the 90s. 

That's an understatement. It was a monster in the 90s until it died off, almost overnight. I never did know what happened.

Quote from: Jason Coplen on September 17, 2024, 01:21:25 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 16, 2024, 10:25:12 PMWorld of Darkness is one of those things that had its peak of popularity a long time ago but is still kept alive by a core group of die-hard fans.  People still play it and new products are still being made.  It's just nowhere near as popular as it was back in the 90s. 

That's an understatement. It was a monster in the 90s until it died off, almost overnight. I never did know what happened.

Chronicles of Darkness. Or as it was originally known "New World of Darkness."

Probably the dumbest move Whitewolf did as a company, even if it was somewhat understandable. They fully ended and killed the original World of Darkness in 2003 and then launched the "New World of Darkness" with the blue core book and Vampire the Requiem in 2004.

There were some good ideas in Nwod but it's initial offerings were very disappointing compared to the original WoD. It turned off a ton of the original fans.

The biggest LARP organization at the time, "One World By Night" even refused to switch to the new setting and new rules. Making the 'official' Larp club, The Camarilla (which was smaller then OWBN) the only LARP organization running the New rules and New Setting.

By the time New World of Darkness had been renamed to "Chronicles of Darkness" it had finally found it's footing and became a great setting in it's own right, but the damage was already done.

As I mentioned in my previous post, by then even Whitewolf now Onyx Path had seen the writing on the wall and had brought the Original World of Darkness back with the 20th anniversary editions.

But at the end of the day, that was the descision which led to the downfall of Whitewolf, ending their original IP with no plans to continue it, and starting fresh with what was seen as a 'lesser' and 'worse' version.

Quote from: finarvyn on September 15, 2024, 12:55:31 PMAnyone have recent experience with WoD games? Anything I should know about them if I decide to play at the store?

I had three WW books, and in a recent purge where I dumped 2/3 of my collection, two of them are gone. Vampire 3rd (I believe) and Vampire: Dark Ages (the original one). I actually liked Dark Ages because of how legitimately spooky the setting was; moody vampires in NYC never really appealed to me that much, but vampires hunting medieval peasants, yeah, that's cool.

Anyway, the third book was Changeling, and I sort of forgot about it because it was in an old Citytech box for some reason. Found it last week, along with a crapload of those cards WW made for it (probably why it was in the box). Browsed it a bit, remembered the couple fun games I played and how cool the book looks. And that's about it...I don't think I'll ever play another WoD game again. Guess that era is over?

I'm one of the heretics that actually *liked* nWoD (though not as much as oWoD) but it was an absolutely braindead choice WW made to do it. They wrote themselves into a corner with the metaplot and never ending power creep, which they got out of with nWoD. They ended up splitting the player base up and it cost them.

V5 did kind of get to a logical point with the rise of smartphones, etc., but it also comes off bland as hell compared to the real WW published books. I'd bet that there are just as many people playing V20 as there are people playing V5, if not more, but what that number is now, I have no idea.

Quote from: Orphan81 on September 17, 2024, 01:52:37 PM

Quote from: Jason Coplen on September 17, 2024, 01:21:25 PM

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 16, 2024, 10:25:12 PMWorld of Darkness is one of those things that had its peak of popularity a long time ago but is still kept alive by a core group of die-hard fans.  People still play it and new products are still being made.  It's just nowhere near as popular as it was back in the 90s. 

That's an understatement. It was a monster in the 90s until it died off, almost overnight. I never did know what happened.

Chronicles of Darkness. Or as it was originally known "New World of Darkness."

Probably the dumbest move Whitewolf did as a company, even if it was somewhat understandable. They fully ended and killed the original World of Darkness in 2003 and then launched the "New World of Darkness" with the blue core book and Vampire the Requiem in 2004.

There were some good ideas in Nwod but it's initial offerings were very disappointing compared to the original WoD. It turned off a ton of the original fans.

The biggest LARP organization at the time, "One World By Night" even refused to switch to the new setting and new rules. Making the 'official' Larp club, The Camarilla (which was smaller then OWBN) the only LARP organization running the New rules and New Setting.

By the time New World of Darkness had been renamed to "Chronicles of Darkness" it had finally found it's footing and became a great setting in it's own right, but the damage was already done.

As I mentioned in my previous post, by then even Whitewolf now Onyx Path had seen the writing on the wall and had brought the Original World of Darkness back with the 20th anniversary editions.

But at the end of the day, that was the descision which led to the downfall of Whitewolf, ending their original IP with no plans to continue it, and starting fresh with what was seen as a 'lesser' and 'worse' version.

Duh! Now I feel really dumb. But I appreciate you letting me know what happened and why it died. I looked through some of the newer WoD stuff about a decade ago and all I could think was - boring. There's no soul to this. No passion. No wonkiness. This is a cheap copy worse than some Conan pastiches.

WoD was already losing sales in the late 90s and early 00s due to culture shift, lore bloat, and growing competition. D&D 3e was the final nail in the coffin, not CoD. CoD was made because they had to change, they couldn't keep running WoD. Sales of WoD fell.

I used to be into the creative side of CoD where people would make their own stuff and share it. I left in disgust once it became clear to me the community only cared about masturbating irrelevant lore bloat vomit and being elitist fuckwits. Fuck that. Fuck WoD.

Curseborn is written by the original writers, but it's gonna be shitty because they were always successful despite themselves. The storypath and conditions rules are godawful.

If you want actually well designed urban fantasy, then you're more or less fucked. Urban Shadows is the most flexible and best designed (it uses PbtA and doesn't frontload you with irrelevant lore bloat), but the publisher doesn't care about it so it's been in development hell for years.

Urban fantasy is a dead genre outside of paint by numbers romance novels. Sure, Harry Potter is technically urban fantasy, but Hogwarts might as well be another planet for all the difference it makes.

I'm currently working on some urban fantasy fiction, but it's not high on my to-do list. I don't get the impression there's anyone interested