Quote from: talysman;907941So, three warriors standing side by side fill a 10-foot corridor.

Yes.  That is specifically mentioned, and CHAINMAIL explicitly states that a figure controls a space on either side to prevent infiltration.

But once again, YOU are smart enough to shit unassisted.

Quote from: Bren;907936LOS. Jeebus H. Chris, this is why some people think they need 400 fucking pages of rules.

• And in a dungeon the bad guys (and you of course) often cannot lob shit over the heads of the front rank because it bounces or breaks when it hits the ceiling before it gets to the target. Trajectory. Parabolas aren't just something mathematicians invented because we were out of other toys to play with.
• And if the goblins are close enough to hit you with a thrown oil flask, then they are close enough for your missile troops to hit them. So maybe do that. Target of opportunity anyone?
• And if you are in a big white room with no walls, no cover, and a ceiling higher than you can throw shit and you are enormously outnumbered, and you are too stupid or slow to run away, then for you, today better be a good day to die, because that's probably what you will be doing.
  
• Maybe you should have tried to avoid or negotiate with those 4-400 goblins you saw hundreds of yards away in that big white room instead of metaphorically or literally circling the wagons and waiting for their attack.

Or maybe you should only play with people smart enough to shit unassisted.

Quote from: DavetheLost;907949What the hell dungeons have people been playing in that they are encountering tens of goblins at once in a single room or corridor?

200 goblins spread through out a multi-room lair is a much different proposition than 200 goblins all at once.

And I never heard of a gentleman's agreement not to target MUs, thieves, et al. You went in the dungeon you took your chances like everyone else.  Tactics like putting lower armoured characters out of the melee do a lot to improve survivability.

But...but... that requires that you are smart enough to shit unassisted!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;907948And you're using physics and realism in D&D?  Ooo!  Ooo!  I can play this game!

I'm guessing you probably can't play with realistic tactics, but let's see, shall we.

Quote… and if you underhand throw, which will have an arc, you actually have a minimum 4 foot clearance.  If you're a trained lobber, that's not that much of an issue.

I was assuming an overhand throw. The normal throwing style for both Molotov cocktails and grenades is overhand. I suppose underhand is possible--especially for the girl-goblins softball team. But yeah, sure skirmishing, underhanded throwing goblins might not hit the ceiling. But they can’t throw over the front rank of PCs without some risk of hitting the ceiling well before they hit any PCs. So we’re back to first hitting the less squishy guys in front not the MUs.

By the same token, if the PCs get the initiative on this spread out rank of skirmishers then if the distance is long enough, some of the skirmishers get dead from PC missile fire (which may cause them to drop their lit oil bombs turning them and their other pals into char) or if the distance is short, all the skirmishers get dead as the PCs close and melee the guys who have no sharp weapons in their little gobliny mits.

QuoteOh, and remember, the Wizard's lower AC, with attendant penalties to hit in a group of people, here's hoping (and I'm being very, very generous here) that the 20 goblins (Because you'd have to roll 2d10x10 to get the size of the group, and that works out to about 100 goblins per encounter.  And I don't know of ANY level one party able to hire that many porters and henchmen to counter that number...) can hit!  Actually the odds of just their archers, not grenadiers, nailing your party wizard to the wall by the balls is pretty good.

So you think that somehow 100 goblins (or even 20 goblins) are all lined up and shooting their bows at the PCs down a 10’x10’ hall. Can you provide some drawings of how that works without hitting (a) the goblins in front of the back three or more rows or (b) hitting the ceiling? Also, Line of Sight…again. Goblin arrows don’t pass through the first two ranks of shield bearing fighters to hit the MU. The arrows hit the first two ranks of fighters and most of the arrows bounce off their heavy armor. Also, what Daztur said.

Quote from: Daztur;907951OK, now that's just idiotic. If 1st level PCs are fighting 100 goblins at once they're going to lose no matter what gentleman agreement is in place.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;907948Grenades, or more accurately, Molotov Cocktails don't care about your stinking cover.

1) You do realize that you’ve moved from tossing a lit lantern, or a clay flask of lantern oil and a torch, or a clay flask of lantern oil with a lit rag stuffed in one end to Molotov cocktails (alcohol & gasoline), Greek Fire, and/or napalm and you do realize those specialty and difficult to produce inflammables burn completely differently than does simple lamp oil, right? And that specialty items are even more expensive than lantern oil.?

Now if it is just lantern oil, then just because lantern oil that hits the shield of the guy in the front rank it is not going to turn half a dozen people into human torches. And it is questionable if is going to splash 6 feet past his shield, him, and the two guys behind him to hit the MU in the third rank. I seem to recall lantern oil doing something like 1d6 damage per round, not the 6d6+ of the average fireball.

2) And if it isn’t lantern oil but some specialty inflammable like Greek fire, then given your assumptions about the deadliness and area of affect (gasoline, Greek fire, napalm, etc.) you must have had not only had a gentleman’s agreement not to target the MUs but another agreement that the goblins didn’t target anyone with Molotov cocktails else the entire party would be rolling around on the ground in flames while the goblins butchered their undefended asses?

QuoteRemember, the Goblins have a chance of surprising the PC's.  Especially if the PC's are INVADING THE DUNGEON THAT THE GOBLINS HAVE TURNED INTO THEIR HOME!

They have a chance for surprise if surprise is possible. But they probably don’t surprise the PCs from far away if the goblins are carrying lit Moltov cocktails. Because in the middle of a huge empty space or a long, straight tunnel the PCs who probably have their eyes open, will see the flames of the goblins who are holding the lit oil flasks. Just like the goblins would see the party’s torches and lanterns at a distance if they had line of sight. You don’t roll for surprise if surprise isn’t a reasonable outcome.

QuoteBut if the goblins have a couple of guys with a Molotov, they don't need to see the Wizard.  Who by the virtue of ALWAYS being able to hit with most of their spells are always the first thing they will target.  Because Goblins may not be smart, they ARE cunning.

And they have x-ray vision…oh wait a minute they don’t have X-ray vision. So how again, do the goblins clearly target the MU when their line of sight is blocked by two ranks of armored shield carrying fighters? Or perhaps you didn’t mean they were targeting the MU but that they were randomly tossing lit oil bombs in the general direction of anyone who approaches their lair. Which, by your rules, turns anyone on the other end into a flaming pile of long pig – including all the armor wearing fighters and clerics. (Also as an aside, those goblins must have their treasure in the form of jars of oil.)

QuoteBut here?  Assuming that the Goblins even want to talk, which given the numbers is a massive, if unrealistic assumption, they will be doing so from a position of strength.  Oh, and another key point of negotiation is that both parties need to have something that the other side wants.

PC party of 4+ maybe...  6 total porters that they can afford on the meager first level gold pile they still have after they've spent their allowance on gear, weapons and armour, vs. 20 to 200 goblins...

How do you fit those 200 goblins in the 20’x20’ room the PCs just entered?

And the tactics people are talking about isn’t done with 4 PCs and a jackass to haul loot. Well it might be done by the jackass. The tactics are done with at least 5-6 fighters in front, at least 2-4 in back, and the MUs behind two ranks of shield bearers.

QuoteI love destroying white room assumptions!  Give me more!

The only thing you are destroying is your credibility.

Quote from: Bren;907968The only thing you are destroying is your credibility.

You cannot destroy what never existed.

Quote from: DavetheLost;907949What the hell dungeons have people been playing in that they are encountering tens of goblins at once in a single room or corridor?

AD&D 1e in their monster manual, does not say that it's for the WHOLE dungeon, just gives a no. encountered.

Quote from: DavetheLost;907949200 goblins spread through out a multi-room lair is a much different proposition than 200 goblins all at once.

It would, if the game bothered to clarify.  But the issue is that people read differently than you apparently.  Unfortunately, not always to the benefit of the game.

Quote from: DavetheLost;907949And I never heard of a gentleman's agreement not to target MUs, thieves, et al. You went in the dungeon you took your chances like everyone else.  Tactics like putting lower armoured characters out of the melee do a lot to improve survivability.

Of course you've never heard of it, no one has EVER mentioned it, it's just happened.  And you just proved it, 'tactics like...', which is useless against those who use ranged weapons by the by, and goblins would love those, as it keeps them out of danger and does wonders against the real threat.  And even with cover, and penalties, the lower AC but bigger threat Magic User would die often, more often than most players would put up with, if there wasn't this BS tactics masquerading as the gentleman's agreement to target the heavies, even if the magic user is actually more damaging than the fighter is.

The point is that no one plays D&D without niche protection, and one of those protections is not focus firing on the party wizard off the word go.  Which is the smart thing to do, because of the fact that magic is god in D&D.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;907969You cannot destroy what never existed.

You should know.  Weren't you writing a book about some pointless shit?  Or are you just happy that you can swing your 'My way is the right way, because I was there, UHN!' e-peen all over the thread again?

Jesus Christ indeed.

A material factor in me deciding I wanted no part of D&D, 37+ years ago, were the masses of Cheez-Whiz snorting morons whining "But the rules say you can't DO that!"  One of the two specific crystallizing incidents was in my magic-user attempting to physically grab a broadsword and take a two-handed baseball swing at the unprotected back of the Big Bad, and being fed the preceding line.  Repeatedly.  At least until I packed up my dice, muttered, "Eff this," and walked.

But, gosh.  That was a generation ago.  I don't nowadays expect to see posts from anyone, with an IQ higher than room temperature, asserting that you can't use a shield to block thrown things coming through your position towards someone behind you.  IT'S A BIG FUCKING SHEET OF METAL.  Of course it can block those things.  You can't find a rule to cover it?  MAKE ONE THE FUCK UP.  On the spot even.  What's that you say?  But shields can't block Molotovs?  Want me to pull up Youtube clips of riot police doing just that, against Molotovs a great deal more volatile and dangerous than medieval tech crap?

I have sympathy for Bren and others attempting to deconstruct your nonsense, but it's completely rhetorical on their parts, because you'll unquestionably come up with some other reason why common sense is suspended at your table.  And if your players are down with you running a stylized wargame, where no tactic not explicitly mentioned in the rules or preapproved by you will work, charming, whatever.

Quote from: Daztur;907951OK, now that's just idiotic. If 1st level PCs are fighting 100 goblins at once they're going to lose no matter what gentleman agreement is in place.

Okay, party of six, Fighter, Magic User, Cleric, Thief, Dwarf, Elf.  Let's assume a standard open entrance, with 10 x 10 stone corridor going straight into the hill side.  Don't give me a staircase or chasm to work with the goblins can't afford the occupational health and safety insurance on those things.  Two guards up front.   Two guard rooms with 20 goblins in bunks or at tables down the hall 50' on either side.  Assorted goblins further down but readily alerted right?

So, first the elf and the thief scout the hill for chimneys and back doors.  If there's one wait for a fire to be lit and plug the chimney.  Give it a day, you bought two weeks rations right.  You stashed most of them up in the trees where bears can't get them so you don't have to lug all that food around when there's gold to be had right?  Anyhow, ambush any goblins that come out to check the chimney.  Surprise thins their numbers out a bit.  Pick off the guards with the elf's long bow and the fighter and dwarf's crossbows.  If one is getting away the magic user uses magic missile to make sure they don't.  The cleric and thief need to be watching for returning goblin raiders and foragers, if any show up, ambush them.  Wait for the watch to be relieved, pick them off too.  It's good to watch until you know how often the watches change so the magic user can rememorize magic missile.

Okay, chances are you won't get more than two sets of the watch before the goblins figure out something's happening.  Set a smoky camp fire about a mile away to give them a direction to go chasing after.  Then you set the big fire in the entrance and start fanning the smoke into the dungeon.  Lie in wait, snipe opportunity targets, disengage before they can figure you out and get organized.  Circle back and snipe the guards.  Look for an opportunity to sleep a large group in one place and cut their throats.  (No, it says "Lawful Good" right here on my character sheet!)  At this point the goblins are probably well aware that you're whittling away at their numbers with wolf pack tactics so it's time to get inside to greet them properly when they get home.  If you've got enough of them out there looking for you, fight your way in, pick an ambush location, grab any treasure you can.  Secure the back door and put a scout, probably the thief out there.  Turn wooden doors in to portable manlets.  Reduce lines of attack with caltrops and prespilled oil flasks.  At this point you hope to get time for the elf and wizard to memorize light and sleep.  Two sleep spells might be better but being able to instantly light up an ambush and not mess around with tinderboxes is worth the time.  When the goblins withdraw from your first ambush it's time to hit the back door.  If they have the back door heavily guarded it might be better to fight your way out the front.  Just make the most of your sleep spells and take the early stages slowly, maximizing kills to losses and keep things moving.  If they can pin you down and bring their numbers to bear, they can kill you.

Anyhow, there's other ways to work it.  Sure,  100 goblins in an open space will get the dwarf, the rest of the party can out run them.  If they know where a dragon or an army is they can run in that direction and hope the goblins suffer the worst of it.  And a smart party in an open space will flee before the enemy is in bow shot range.

If the DM tells you you're surrounded by 100 goblins in an open space it's time to mutiny.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;907899Really?  Then there must not have been a lot of wizard/magic user players then back in your day.  I've found that if you target the magic user first, you tend to turn off players from ever playing one ever again. After all, what's the point if on a bad initiative, you're down because everything targets you.

Ignoring your well-established and abject lack of knowledge when it comes to mechanics, I'm also struck by the bizarre excluded middle fallacy here: There's a vast expanse between "gentleman's agreement that nothing will ever attack you" and "everything will attack you and only you".

Quote from: Christopher Brady;90794810 member PC party wants to live.

20+ Goblins want the party's stuff, and don't care how they get it.

Doesn't look too good does it?  I don't see exactly what the PC party can offer the Goblins to convince the little blighters to leave them alone.  In fact, it's more likely that the Goblins would be willing to give the PC's a head start on running, but only AFTER they give over all their stuff.  Otherwise it's Murder Time, Fun Time!  YAY!

Hell, that's what bullying is.  One side, the Bully, seeing themselves as more powerful than their victim and proving by taking whatever it is they want from the victim.


I love destroying white room assumptions!  Give me more!

A PC, who is able to speak goblin-ese, the one with decent CHA score, supported by Bluff/Diplomacy/Threaten (or similar mechanical, edition-dependent solutions) might address Goblins, or whoever leads them and say they are carrying a bomb which is gonna make big KABOOM if dropped. Big enough for this whole dungeon to become eradicated of all life, including Goblins themselves. Or that they are sent by Ugruk-Ha-McGoblinBoss, who sends them to negotiate an union and joint operation against man-tribes. Or that they are traveling shopkeepers selling leather jackets. Or something like that - players are usually resourceful enough to develop a convincing lie pretty quick.

In short: you're right when you say have to look as strong as the other. It's not the whole truth, because there are many ways to approach negotiations, but just for the sake of discussion let's say it's about "from the position of strength" scenario only.
So, you're right, but you're also wrong when you assume it's about pure, physical strength that might be judged by simply looking at the other guy(s).


--------------------

Side note: guys, do wizards and similar spellcasters in your games are ALWAYS easy to recognize, because they wear some fancy clothes, pointy hats, long beards and make the general impression their shit doesn't stink? I mean, I didn't read whole thread but the idea that the other party always knows what class are adventurers seems a bit weird to me.

Quote from: DavetheLost;907949What the hell dungeons have people been playing in that they are encountering tens of goblins at once in a single room or corridor?

:cool:

Quote from: daniel_ream;907892I'm not entirely certain what that means, but the Leverage RPG is easily the best RPG treatment of the heist genre I've ever seen.  Admittedly, it's largely a narrative game.

Never seen Leverage, but of the methodologies I've seen by other games trying to shape play to emulate it's idealized parent literature more I wholly stand by my statement. They end up more restrictive wishful thinking than truly productive mechanics reflecting the source material on the whole.

I stopped using smart tactics for my monsters when I got to the point where I could destroy parties with a balanced combat encounter pretty easily. Focus fire. Target the casters first. Hell, the game it crystalized for me is when I had a bunch of giant beetles gang up on a half-giant fighter, and dropped him in one turn. I now call it the "Beetle problem" Simply having the monsters use focus fire can be pretty devastating.
Now, I use semi-random tactics. I justify this approach as the confusion of combat, that a foe might choose to make a risky charge, or choose to play it safe, and I haven't got the time to delve into every orc's psychology every turn when making decisions for them. I just assign a tactic to a die roll chance (2 in 6 chance this goblin is gonna try to chuck a spear at the wizard in the back row this turn!) Not every monster is a tactical genius with a GM's eye view of the battlefield.

I think I kicked a hornet's nest and may have derailed the topic. Sorry, everybody!

Quote from: Ratman_tf;908000I stopped using smart tactics for my monsters when I got to the point where I could destroy parties with a balanced combat encounter pretty easily. Focus fire. Target the casters first. Hell, the game it crystalized for me is when I had a bunch of giant beetles gang up on a half-giant fighter, and dropped him in one turn. I now call it the "Beetle problem" Simply having the monsters use focus fire can be pretty devastating.
Now, I use semi-random tactics. I justify this approach as the confusion of combat, that a foe might choose to make a risky charge, or choose to play it safe, and I haven't got the time to delve into every orc's psychology every turn when making decisions for them. I just assign a tactic to a die roll chance (2 in 6 chance this goblin is gonna try to chuck a spear at the wizard in the back row this turn!) Not every monster is a tactical genius with a GM's eye view of the battlefield.

Shifting tactics through interpreting monster psychology/instinct is actually a topic worthy of its own. I would personally prefer a "How To" topic so people can share useful advice. (I prefer "plot/declare first, then initiative rolls" for Fog of War myself.)

"Make it so, number one!" /Picard voice