Quote from: DavetheLost;911127Butted mail is definitely higher maintenance. It works, but rivited or welded is better. As a sometime blacksmith I am impressed by the fine rivets in mail. As for forge welding mail rings, that would be quite a feat of skill.

Agreed! Riveted is a howling pain in the butt; I had to make special jigs to overlap the links and hold them while I drilled them through, and then a tiny specialist anvil to peen over the rivet. Welded, the couple of times I tried it, was actually easier but much more time-consuming.

Quote from: kosmos1214;911129interestingly we have proof of forge welded rings in some higher quality suits.
Not every ring mind usually when you see it its like every other ring or the like.

On, yes, very much so; one method used alternating rows of solid / stamped / welded rings linked by the riveted ones. You pay for what you get, I think...

Quote from: Telarus;911254The suit that Lindybeige shows is an evolution of indo-persian "four mirror armor", which was worn over chain. The later evolutions have rings on the edges of the plate, which are integral to the mail (no chain behind them).

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/71/88/a1/7188a113be418b1034d6360a94e953c0.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gPrBbXykwM

Prof. Barker had a couple of (presumably) cavalry arm guards that were made this way; very fine mail linking etched steel plates. Very impressive; how practical, I don't know. Very different fighting styles at work, I think.

I personally think, in a class based game, niche protection is essential for balance. It is fundamental to how the classes are balanced against each other, for better or worse.

So, for example, only the Fighter gets the heaviest armour. Only the magic user gets spells. Only the thief gets backstab. These become the fundamental points of differentiation between the classes. You can certainly allow a bit of cross over - but it cant be wholesale - there must be some "niche protection" - or you will end up with minmax cherry picked abilities that break the balance of the game.

I should say however that I greatly dislike enforced roles. If a fighter wants to be stealthy, pick locks, etc - I want that possibility. But I don't want the Fighter doing backstabs, because that is the unique Thief ability. Similarly, a magic user might train to use light/medium armour - but not heavy armour, because that is the Fighter's thing (in my example). I very much disliked the hard-baked roles of 4e (striker/support/tank etc). Especially the "striker" role, that was a big mistake imo - all players like to do decent damage, in my experience.

So to be a bit clearer -  I think a degree of "class ability" niche protection is required. But not "role" protection. I prefer a game where any class can have depth in any "role", depending on the choices made as they level up.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;911261Quite good points! I've made and repaired butted, riveted, and welded mail over the years, and handled quite a few historical examples from all over the world. Phil Barker had some very fine stuff that looked like it had come from off one of the Whiting and Davis mail-making machines, and which was al almighty pain to repair.

Agreed that our ancestors were not stupid, although some of them must have been; quite a few of the corpses found in the mass graves at Visby were wearing butted mail coifs and mittens. (It had been a hot couple of days after the battle, and apparently the scavengers didn't want to pull the mail off the swollen and bloated bodies.) Is butted mail as effective as riveted and welded? No, of course not, and it is higher maintenance. On the other hand , it is a lot cheaper to make and buy, which is why lower-status and poorer people might choose to get it and then move up to a better type of mail when they could afford it or get it off the bodies of slain opponents.

I should also note that Gronan has whacked me a few times with various objects (sharp and blunt), just to see how well the stuff really works. There wasn't all that much damage to the mail, but I did get some very picturesque bruises.

Game-wise, I think that it would be likely that your average poor people might very well be desperate enough to wear butted mail, and which is why they look at the usual fully-armored player-character as so much money on the hoof / a walking armor shop.

Interesting my understanding was that there where no historical finds of butted mail.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;911262Agreed! Riveted is a howling pain in the butt; I had to make special jigs to overlap the links and hold them while I drilled them through, and then a tiny specialist anvil to peen over the rivet. Welded, the couple of times I tried it, was actually easier but much more time-consuming.

If i had to guess there's probably some snazy way to make it easier.
Though nothing comes to mind off the top of my hat.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;911264On, yes, very much so; one method used alternating rows of solid / stamped / welded rings linked by the riveted ones. You pay for what you get, I think...

Probably there a long history of that in there things why not armor.

Quote from: kosmos1214;911279Interesting my understanding was that there where no historical finds of butted mail.

If i had to guess there's probably some snazy way to make it easier.
Though nothing comes to mind off the top of my hat.

Probably there a long history of that in there things why not armor.

I dunno; Visby is so far off to one end of the bell curve that it's hard to tell if it's any sure indication of historical practice. Aside from places like the Arsenal at Graz, Austria, there are so few well-documented finds of mail that we'll probably never know for sure - for the very reasons that you point out. The stuff is probably not going to survive, unless it's stored or preserved under the right conditions. Sp much of what we know about mail is from illustrations, which are perhaps not the most reliable of technical sources. There's a lot more Japanese and Indo-Persian mail around then there is European, but that's due to the collecting habits of past generations I suspect.

If you do think of something, let me know!

Agreed.

Quote from: DavetheLost;911127Butted mail is definitely higher maintenance.

Id guess that is exactly why the player was repairing it for the store. Lots and lots of damaged rings and just plain missing rings. According to him the suit had gone through some pretty amature repairs with all sorts of mis-connected rings. Quick field repairs? No clue.

In any case I think by the time the wizard has shucked the armour the battles probably over in 5e.

Quote from: Psikerlord;911277So to be a bit clearer -  I think a degree of "class ability" niche protection is required. But not "role" protection. I prefer a game where any class can have depth in any "role", depending on the choices made as they level up.

Right. I detest attempts to enforce role protection where a player wont allow anyone else to take the same class as them. Or taking that further, wont allow anyone with the same role. The fighter doesn't want any other fighters and no rangers or paladins competing either.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;911284I dunno; Visby is so far off to one end of the bell curve that it's hard to tell if it's any sure indication of historical practice. Aside from places like the Arsenal at Graz, Austria, there are so few well-documented finds of mail that we'll probably never know for sure - for the very reasons that you point out. The stuff is probably not going to survive, unless it's stored or preserved under the right conditions. Sp much of what we know about mail is from illustrations, which are perhaps not the most reliable of technical sources. There's a lot more Japanese and Indo-Persian mail around then there is European, but that's due to the collecting habits of past generations I suspect.

If you do think of something, let me know!

Agreed.

Hey sure thing its nice to have someone talk about arms and armor with there arnt to meany in my area.
Actually there is one thing i can think of  a sword called a noklang the only reliable information i have ever found on the thing comes from the weapons book put out by the diagram group.
https://books.google.com/books?id=iEpJYgh3gkwC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=noklang+sword&source=bl&ots=L8RYq7l_3Z&sig=B8hEc6NNe-YShLtiJCBCKUZorO0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7n8PqxqjOAhVV6GMKHcE8AJwQ6AEILzAE#v=onepage&q=noklang%20sword&f=false
Number 2 on that page do you  know of a good place to look for information on it?

Quote from: kosmos1214;911391Number 2 on that page do you  know of a good place to look for information on it?

The Kachin Hills in northern Myanmar? Or did you mean a book?


'Cuz if you meant a book, I got almost nothing:

QuoteThe Kachin people are traditionally known for their disciplined fighting skills, complex clan inter-relations, craftsmanship, herbal healing and jungle survival skills.

Quote from: Bren;911429The Kachin Hills in northern Myanmar? Or did you mean a book?


'Cuz if you meant a book, I got almost nothing:

Thanks thats more then iv found in a while.

Quote from: kosmos1214;911445Thanks thats more then iv found in a while.

Your welcome. Sometimes it is amazing what one can find on the Internet.

Quote from: Bren;911460Your welcome. Sometimes it is amazing what one can find on the Internet.

Defiantly and at times how maddeningly hard it can be to find.

Quote from: kosmos1214;911391Hey sure thing its nice to have someone talk about arms and armor with there arnt to meany in my area.
Actually there is one thing i can think of  a sword called a noklang the only reliable information i have ever found on the thing comes from the weapons book put out by the diagram group.
https://books.google.com/books?id=iEpJYgh3gkwC&pg=PA40&lpg=PA40&dq=noklang+sword&source=bl&ots=L8RYq7l_3Z&sig=B8hEc6NNe-YShLtiJCBCKUZorO0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj7n8PqxqjOAhVV6GMKHcE8AJwQ6AEILzAE#v=onepage&q=noklang%20sword&f=false
Number 2 on that page do you  know of a good place to look for information on it?

Same here - always delighted to talk ironmongery!

I think Gronan and I were very lucky; practical experience making and using European-style arms and armor, and then being thrown in at the deep end with Prof. Barker's mind-boggling collection of snickersnees.

Cool weapon, isn't it? Variation on what my Chinese son-in-law calls (generically) a dao, which I gather in Chinese martial arts is anything that's a sword blade with a handle on it. This thing reminds me of a short-handled glaive - which is a bad translation of the Chinese term - or a shorter version of a naginata. On both, the blades are usually shorter then on this weapon, and from the two sets of guards I'd be fascinated to see this thing in action.

A couple of ideas for information; The V&A in London has one, and so does the Pitt Rivers in Oxford. As for how to use the thing, I'd be inclined to look for a Chinese tradition martial arts school, and have a session with one of their glaives.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;911516Same here - always delighted to talk ironmongery!

I think Gronan and I were very lucky; practical experience making and using European-style arms and armor, and then being thrown in at the deep end with Prof. Barker's mind-boggling collection of snickersnees.

Cool weapon, isn't it? Variation on what my Chinese son-in-law calls (generically) a dao, which I gather in Chinese martial arts is anything that's a sword blade with a handle on it. This thing reminds me of a short-handled glaive - which is a bad translation of the Chinese term - or a shorter version of a naginata. On both, the blades are usually shorter then on this weapon, and from the two sets of guards I'd be fascinated to see this thing in action.

A couple of ideas for information; The V&A in London has one, and so does the Pitt Rivers in Oxford. As for how to use the thing, I'd be inclined to look for a Chinese tradition martial arts school, and have a session with one of their glaives.

Thanks and i know just looking at it makes me think about how it would be used quite a bit.
As soon as i tripped over it in the book i when there no way im not putting that in my game but finding has been a pain so thanks again.