Quote from: KrakaJakThat's not the point...the point is...on the ouside world RPG does NOT mean D&D. RPG means Final-Fantasy. Your average outsider HAS no fucking clue what this D&D thing is about.

Around here they sure do. I don't know how old you are, or where you live, but here in suburban Canada in the 80s D&D was huge. I'm talking kids playing in D&D clubs at almost every junior high school in Calgary huge.

I could walk around my office right now and I'd guess over a third the 40 guys I ask would have played D&D at some point in their life. I'd be suprised if more than one or two had ever played an RPG other than D&D.

In my demographic, D&D has huge recognition. And my demographic happens to match pretty closely to the peak of the bell curve of the age of pen-and-paper RPG players. Coincidence?

Quote from: KrakaJakHowever, you mention the name Dungeons & Dragons. They recognize the name, but it means some math game that NERDY losers play.

No more loserish among 25-40 year old men around here than PC games or comics.

I get the feeling you don't know many casual gamers. RPGnet and other fan sites are not indicative of the hobby as a whole. They're populated by hard-core RPG lovers who crave the new and the novel. They are the core of the hobby, but the do not have enough buying power to support the RPG industry. You need the casuals, the 14-year-olds who learn from their older cousins, the 38-year-olds with a family and mortgage looking to relive the glory years, the co-workers willing to try a new social activity. To most of those people, D&D is role-playing. Ask them to try Savage Worlds or Sorceror of Zo and you're taking them way out of their comfort zone.

Quote from: HaffrungAround here they sure do. I don't know how old you are, or where you live, but here in suburban Canada in the 80s D&D was huge. I'm talking kids playing in D&D clubs at almost every junior high school in Calgary huge.

Similar experience in B.C.

Quote from: HaffrungI could walk around my office right now and I'd guess over a third the 40 guys I ask would have played D&D at some point in their life. I'd be suprised if more than one or two had ever played an RPG other than D&D.

Except that in most cases along with D&D came all the other TSR games, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Gangbusters, we even threw in some Bushido.  I don't see this as the case with kids brought up on 3.5.  They seem much more limited to high fantasy as the gaming genre than we did.

Quote from: James J SkachTell you what, KJ - go look at the numbers in this thread (thanks to Koltar).

Debate the meaning all you want - but these are actual figures from actual stores.

And as far as I can tell, If D&D disappeared tomorrow, so would 60% of the market.  How much would come back?  How much would shift to other games?

Interesting questions, and being discussed in other threads.

If you're hole point was to say the D&D =/= Industry - I'm not sure anyone would argue that.  But they sure are a big fucking hunk of it.

I do know the ACTUAL regional sales for borders in Southwest United States. I'm not allowed to post those individual numbers publicly, but I'm sure I can share some of these market percentiles. The numbers from the link show that D&D is 55% of that datas marketshare, pretty close to Borders, which D&D is at about 49%. White-Wolf has a much stronger presence at Borders than in those numbers, 31% with Exalted represtenting almost 1/3 of WW total sales. Our per-store WTD are MUCH smaller though (good news for Hobby-Shop owners).

All these numbers aside, Borders could care less if D&D stopped selling. All it would mean is they would carry less (or no) Wizards of the Coast books. They would still carry RPGs as long as the books were selling. Hobby Stores (hopefully!) do not rely on RPG's for their sales...if D&D books stopped selling they'd stop carrying them too, but if other game books keep selling, they'd keep carrying them. They make all their money on Warhammer and Magic anyway

To put it another way...the PLAYERS (also read, buyers) are the industry. Any company on the map today or new company to come forward can take D&D's top spot, by making a new game and marketing it to NEW players.

That's why Wizards has the marketshare they have, they CREATE players of their game. They don't care about all the people bellyaching about 4th, it's coming and they and if their old players don't like it, fuck em, that's not who Wizards is selling to anyway!

Every edition of D&D was it's own marketplace that doesn't even COMPETE with other RPG's. White-Wolf, Green-Ronin (at least with WHFRP), SJG, etc. all have their own seperate customer bases. Only a stupid company would try to steal a fraction of an already small number like an RPG company trying to steal some fans of D&D. Like has been stated elsewhere, hardcore RPG players are few and far between. Most people play one game and stick with it, and that's whatever first game they played and liked.

For this region DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is NOT thought of as "that Nerdy math game".


If you mention RPGs to most local folks in Southwestern Ohio (Or Southeastern Indiana) they think of World of Warcraft , NOT Final Fantasy. No one is playing Final Fantasy any more.  If they think of other RPGS, then they say:  "Oh yeah that at the table game; Dungeons and Dragons." the next usually said is ..."But I never have enough time to get a group together"  Other related lines :
 "YEAh , I think my brother ( or sister) still plays that sometimes"

"D&D? My Dad (or Uncle, Aunt) still plays that. I've been meaning to try it ...I am in a guild in WoW, so he says I should kinda get it."

 SO, BOTH World Of Warcraft and Dungeons and Dragons are uusually thought of at first mention of RPGs.

 Liker I mentioned in that other thread -I've run into youg ladies at places like the HUSTLER store who are playing World of Warcraft. The guy who fixed some lights in my house plays in a guild in WOW. (He started asked me details about regular RPGs when he saw my bookshelves)


- Ed C.