I think this should be addressed:

I DO NOT think the "RPG Industry" relies on D&D. I think if D&D 4 tanks...then RPG's wil be fine and another game (or group of games...evening out the marketplace a bit) will fill the RPG void.

D&D is the most poular game by far...but if the new edition tanks and new 3rd edition material isn't readily available...people will play other things. People looking for D&D will probably play "spiritual successors" like Castles and Crusades...or maybe even FtA or dare I say Palladium FRP. Perhaps they'll move on to try some new genre (or new players will come in on a genre) different than fantasy.

D&D is not "the Industry". It is only the most successful RPG out right now.

But just as White-Wolf filled the void in the late 90's someone else will fill the void if D&D4 tanks.

I think saying D&D is the industry -- or the lion's share of the industry -- is saying something different than the industry would survive it's demise. If you are talking about the "state of the industry", and you are not including D&D in that analysis, you aren't fairly reflecting the RPG industry.

It's definitely not the hobby.

Quote from: KrakaJakD&D is not "the Industry".

If posting that in a thread makes you sleep better at night...

Me, I'm a realist.

Disagree. I remember the days when a half dozen kids in every junior high class played D&D. It has massive market penetration and name recognition for people my age. I know long-time D&D players who aren't even aware of the existence of Palladium, or Castles and Crusades, or WFRP.

It isn't just a matter of keeping today's players either. RPGs have a steep attrition rate once people reach kids and mortgage age. If the industry can't attract new gamers in large numbers, it's demographic fate is to age and shrink. And to reach new gamers in large numbers, you need mass-market presence and name branding. I just don't see another game coming along to take the place of D&D on the shelves of all those Barnes & Noble and in the imaginations of hundreds of thousands of gamers. You're just not going to see 13-year-olds mooching $30 off their parents to buy the Hawkmoon RPG or Ars Magica.

Quote from: KrakaJakI think this should be addressed:

I DO NOT think the "RPG Industry" relies on D&D. I think if D&D 4 tanks...then RPG's wil be fine and another game (or group of games...evening out the marketplace a bit) will fill the RPG void.

D&D is the most poular game by far...but if the new edition tanks and new 3rd edition material isn't readily available...people will play other things. People looking for D&D will probably play "spiritual successors" like Castles and Crusades...or maybe even FtA or dare I say Palladium FRP. Perhaps they'll move on to try some new genre (or new players will come in on a genre) different than fantasy.

D&D is not "the Industry". It is only the most successful RPG out right now.

But just as White-Wolf filled the void in the late 90's someone else will fill the void if D&D4 tanks.

...but seriously, you've been posting a lot of stuff that is trying to justify your D&D "hate".  I mean, why do you care so much?  If you don't like D&D, fine, don't play it and don't talk about it.  No one is going to justify your hate exept other haters.  The rest of the RPG world is just fine facing the truth.

ne'ermind.
pointless post.

Quote from: grubman...but seriously, you've been posting a lot of stuff that is trying to justify your D&D "hate".  I mean, why do you care so much?  If you don't like D&D, fine, don't play it and don't talk about it.  No one is going to justify your hate exept other haters.  The rest of the RPG world is just fine facing the truth.

Hate? Who said I hate D&D?

I just don't think D&D should be considered the Holy-Cow it is on this board nor do I treat it as such. I *actually* consider D&D3 to be one of the best RPG's ever made. However I certainly don't think it's better than some of the other top-tier RPGs out there.

Quote from: halfrungDisagree. I remember the days when a half dozen kids in every junior high class played D&D. It has massive market penetration and name recognition for people my age. I know long-time D&D players who aren't even aware of the existence of Palladium, or Castles and Crusades, or WFRP.

I also remember the days in my Jr. High when I asked RIFTS players about D&D and got the same "what's that?" response. I've seen the same with Vampire, GURPS and ShadowRun players too. It's my understanding that *most* RPG players play one game and only one game, and that one game is NOT always D&D. It's whatever they played first!

Look - Its a BIG fucking chunk of the industry and the "entry point game" for most people when they try RPGs for the first time.

 So - I don't think it can "Die". The hour HASBRO/WotC gives up on supporting it - you just know some other publisher will try to get the rights cheaply or at least affordably.

 Not to be an 's' about this minor detail : But is there an "s" missing from one of the words in the thread title?


- Ed C.

Quote from: KrakaJakI just don't think D&D should be considered the Holy-Cow it is on this board nor do I treat it as such.

Wow.  So those of us who think that D&D is important to the hobby and the industry should stop now, because you don't think it is.  Yes, sir!

Quote from: KrakaJakI *actually* consider D&D3 to be one of the best RPG's ever made. However I certainly don't think it's better than some of the other top-tier RPGs out there.

You mean second tier, right?

See, it's important to make he distinction of whether or not you are talking about your taste in games, or the market.  If it's your taste, well, your tiers are yours to decide.  If you put D&D in a tier with others, and you don't think it's better than some of the others in your top tier...ummm..yeah...ok...great for you.  But if you're talking about the market, there is only one game in the top tier.  Eveything else is second tier or below.  That's just the way it shakes out. Sorry.

Quote from: KrakaJakI also remember the days in my Jr. High when I asked RIFTS players about D&D and got the same "what's that?" response. I've seen the same with Vampire, GURPS and ShadowRun players too. It's my understanding that *most* RPG players play one game and only one game, and that one game is NOT always D&D. It's whatever they played first!

And hey, guess what, it's very likley that most people play D&D first!  Amazing, huh?  Does that make it objectively better? No.  But you've befuddled and conflated a bunch of issues, so it's really hard to tell exactly what your point is...

Quote from: KrakaJakBut just as White-Wolf filled the void in the late 90's someone else will fill the void if D&D4 tanks.

D&D isn't the industry. But it is the major player in the industry.

If D&D4 tanks, nobody "fills the void." Sure, some publisher or another will probably expand to a noticeable degree, but I bet a bunch will go out of business trying to expand to "fill the void." But if D&D goes away, the entire RPG market shrinks, rather than smaller entities getting bigger to keep the industry at the same level.

None of which should affect your local play group one bit.

Quote from: HaffrungIt isn't just a matter of keeping today's players either. RPGs have a steep attrition rate once people reach kids and mortgage age. If the industry can't attract new gamers in large numbers, it's demographic fate is to age and shrink. And to reach new gamers in large numbers, you need mass-market presence and name branding. I just don't see another game coming along to take the place of D&D on the shelves of all those Barnes & Noble and in the imaginations of hundreds of thousands of gamers. You're just not going to see 13-year-olds mooching $30 off their parents to buy the Hawkmoon RPG or Ars Magica.

Good point. I've lost count of the mumber of times over the years people have responded with "oh, you mean Dungeons & Dragons" when I've told them I roleplayed. As far as new blood is concerned it's the only game in town, unless they're fortunate enough to know a group who plays a wide variety of other games.

Like it or not D&D has a place in the mindscape of society at large that other systems simply don't. In the unlikely event of it's sudden demise any contenders for the vacant throne would be fighting against a juggernaut of cultural momentum and expectation it's built up over the last 30+ years.

D&D is obviously not the entirety of the hobby... its only such a large part of it that what would be left if D&D suddenly disappeared wouldn't rightly deserve to be called an "industry", it would be an "amateur publishing business" at best.

Effectively, D&D IS the industry.

RPGPundit

As noted above, you're confusing whether the hobby would survive DnD's demise with the nature of the industry.

The industry as of today and as of pretty much the whole history of the hobby is DnD and some other stuff.

The hobby too in fact, if DnD died off then the hobby would be the other stuff, and would be a much smaller hobby.

But basically, our tastes don't shape reality.  I regard DnD 3e as a great piece of design that does nothing I am interested in in gaming, I don't particularly like it for all I respect it.  But what has that to do with its share of the industry?  Nothing at all.

DnD pretty much is the industry, everything else is a bit of a footnote, sufficiently so that it can be hard to discuss industry trends without actually excluding DnD as otherwise the only trends worth discussing are those that affect DnD.

None of this has anything to do with its quality as a game, though I do think it's quality as a game has plenty to do with its popularity and resulting 300lb gorilla status.

Incidentally, for the last month Changeling: The Lost has been the bestselling RPG in this country: it's been holding the #1 spot on the list of the most popular products at the local chain of gaming stores ever since it was released. D&D comes in at #9 with the PHB.