Quote from: Omega;844466...In AD&D in a city you had a chance of an encounter every 3 turns  with encounters including, Assassins, Bandits, Demons, Devils, Doppelgangers, all the way up to Vampires and Liches. For perspective. That is 2 checks per hour in an AD&D city. (Rounds were 1 minute, Turns 10 minutes.) With a 1 in 20, or 1 in 6 depending on how you read it, chance of an encounter happening. with about a 15-25% chance of something potentially bad encountered in the daytime and 40-50% at night. Luckily most of the monster stuff did not come out till night. ...

LOL. Is there some missing context that makes this not insane?

Is it only for PC parties? Perhaps the assumption is that PC parties, with their supernatural ability to level up and become supermen, magically attract the forces of darkness to try to destroy them?

If everyone had that chance of hostile encounter, the whole town would be killed off in less than a week. Er, every town using those encounter tables, that is.

I find that it is extremely common for groups to apply modern standards rather than medieval ones to fantasy worlds. It's hard to picture how a town could function without police, but police are a modern development. While there were laws and courts, they often worked quite differently than in modern times. A town watch wasn't necessarily set up by the government, but was rather a group of neighbors who armed themselves to keep their area safe. Today we would call them vigilantes, but then it was being a good citizen.


For those like Ravenswing who say that people would never absolutely wear armor in town, I'm trying to understand what you mean.

Let's say we're in medieval Scotland, and a traveling group of Gaelic warriors have recently driven off a band of Picts. They go into a nearby market town. Are you saying that they would unquestionably take off their armor and carry it in their packs, rather than wear armor into the town?

I don't have any specific references on the point, but that doesn't sound like narratives I read like the historical Icelandic sagas or the Song of Roland. I would picture the warriors as coming into town and mostly doing what they liked - because warriors generally seem rowdy and arrogant. If they caused too much trouble some people would gather a mob to oust them, but especially if they were spending a bunch of money, they might instead be welcomed.

Quote from: jhkim;844493I find that it is extremely common for groups to apply modern standards rather than medieval ones to fantasy worlds. It's hard to picture how a town could function without police, but police are a modern development. While there were laws and courts, they often worked quite differently than in modern times. A town watch wasn't necessarily set up by the government, but was rather a group of neighbors who armed themselves to keep their area safe. Today we would call them vigilantes, but then it was being a good citizen.


For those like Ravenswing who say that people would never absolutely wear armor in town, I'm trying to understand what you mean.

Let's say we're in medieval Scotland, and a traveling group of Gaelic warriors have recently driven off a band of Picts. They go into a nearby market town. Are you saying that they would unquestionably take off their armor and carry it in their packs, rather than wear armor into the town?

I don't have any specific references on the point, but that doesn't sound like narratives I read like the historical Icelandic sagas or the Song of Roland. I would picture the warriors as coming into town and mostly doing what they liked - because warriors generally seem rowdy and arrogant. If they caused too much trouble some people would gather a mob to oust them, but especially if they were spending a bunch of money, they might instead be welcomed.

I am totally fine with people projecting modern stuff back. I've been reading history books for decades and I am still unclear on how law and order was handled in many places. I do find it fascinating though that you had other structures or institutions in place that handled issues we would handle with a modern police force (or that the town watch was often more about keeping the population from rebelling, being attacked by outsiders and putting out fires than enforcing local ordinances). But the world is big and you have places where things approaching a police force kind of exist. Some of the stuff I've been encountering in my research for historical China is surprisingly advanced in that respect (at least by the Song Dynasty). I'm all for a knowledgeable GM exploring these things, because they pretty interesting and can add something to the setting (also lack of a modern police force presents a challenge that happens to work well with may of the conceits of fantasy RPG adventures). But if the GM doesn't have that background or knowledge, I'm okay with Barney Fife keeping tabs on the locals.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;844502But if the GM doesn't have that background or knowledge, I'm okay with Barney Fife keeping tabs on the locals.

I agree with this. I've run some historical campaigns, but in fantasy worlds I'm fine if they differ from history. (Indeed, I think it makes sense that they should differ from history given magic, monsters, and so forth.)

The problem is when people saying that certain things are impossible because of realism - when that supposed realism is at odds with real history.

Quote from: jhkim;844506The problem is when people saying that certain things are impossible because of realism - when that supposed realism is at odds with real history.

I agree. I think if you are aiming for historical realism then you ought to do your research but most groups I've encountered want to treat history a bit more lightly (it is a fantasy world, perhaps vaguely inspired by history but with a bunch of other timeless tropes and setting elements thrown in and a dash of Hollywood anachronisms). Most folks, I think, like fantasy because it liberates their imagination, and history can shackle that feeling for some people.

Quote from: Skarg;844490LOL. Is there some missing context that makes this not insane?

Is it only for PC parties? Perhaps the assumption is that PC parties, with their supernatural ability to level up and become supermen, magically attract the forces of darkness to try to destroy them?

If everyone had that chance of hostile encounter, the whole town would be killed off in less than a week. Er, every town using those encounter tables, that is.

I think it assumes that the PCs are "encounter magnets." But keep in mind that if going by the 1 in 20 factor, that is only about 2 encounters per day.

Also you can encounter other adventurers, same as delving into a ruin has a chance of bumping into another party. These encounters are no guarantee hostile every time either. And hopefully are not hostile as these city NPCs could be level 7 and up in some cases!

example: A fighter level 6-12 with 0-3 henchmen. The thief could be level 8-11 with 0-2 apprentices. If alone then is an adventurer just stopping by in the city/town.

quick demo. Rolling up a full day. 48 checks (which would not really be the case as you'd be spending time off the streets in stores, etc where encounters might not happen.)
2 daytime encounters: a Beggar (who did not have any secrets!) and a Gentleman.
3 night-time encounters, 9 Bandits + leader, 8 elven Ruffians (one of which is a level 7 Assassin!), and a level 8 NG half-orc Cleric with 4 lesser clerics.

Quote from: jhkim;844493Let's say we're in medieval Scotland, and a traveling group of Gaelic warriors have recently driven off a band of Picts. They go into a nearby market town. Are you saying that they would unquestionably take off their armor and carry it in their packs, rather than wear armor into the town?

I'd want to know quite a bit more about the setting and time period. Do we even have market towns before the Picts merged with the Gaels in what is now known as Scotland or do what passes for urbanized people live in Dark Age/Early Medieval oppidae rather than what a modern might think of as a town?  Do the these Gaels even wear much in the way of armor? or are they light infantry skirmishers? What are the Vikings doing at this time in proto-Scotland, etc?

The Song of Roland does not, so far as I recall, deal with people other than what are essentially the knights and champions of the Emperor Charlemagne in the field at war shopping or tavern crawling in town is absent from the tale. Iceland is a pretty rural setting and its been a long while since I read any sagas, but I seem to recall a distinction between what people wear traveling from farm to village and what they would wear in a duel, when engaged in ambush or attacking their neighbor's stead, or when going raiding. Even though, I seem to recall some folks being described as not wearing armor.

I figure soldiers (sailors and pirates) in pretty much every period of history get rowdy and arrogant, but their presence and their behavior is often limited to that part of town. And the merchants and entertainers there are good enough at separating warriors from their wealth that it pays to tolerate a bit of boisterousness. As long as the warriors are spending money. The line between soldier and brigand is pretty elastic throughout an awful lot of European history.

Quote from: jhkim;844493For those like Ravenswing who say that people would never absolutely wear armor in town, I'm trying to understand what you mean.

Haven't said anything of the sort.

Of course, if people had a high expectation of trouble -- as opposed to the Dungeon Fantasy standard of "There could be a random encounter any second! -- I expect they'd be kitted up.

If there were riots in the streets, I expect people would be kitted up.

I just object to the premise that Everyone Would Wear Armor All The Time, And Without Any Ill Effects To Boot.

Quote from: 5 Stone Games;844322I've only worn mail for brief time  so I don't have first hand experience with plate I  know that the armor is maneuverable and not awkward, you can even do acrobatics in it  but it takes what two people to don and wearing 60-70 pounds of metal and linen can't be terribly comfortable over the day. Certainly manageable and you can even sleep in it   but it not fun.

Unless you get used to it. Modern combat gear can reach as much, and it's on the back, not well-distributed across the whole body.
But even when you get used to it, you'd still rather wear something else:).

Quote from: Omega;844466In AD&D in a city you had a chance of an encounter every 3 turns  with encounters including, Assassins, Bandits, Demons, Devils, Doppelgangers, all the way up to Vampires and Liches. For perspective. That is 2 checks per hour in an AD&D city. (Rounds were 1 minute, Turns 10 minutes.) With a 1 in 20, or 1 in 6 depending on how you read it, chance of an encounter happening. with about a 15-25% chance of something potentially bad encountered in the daytime and 40-50% at night. Luckily most of the monster stuff did not come out till night.

"And you expect us to walk around with no armour or weapons? Yeah riiiiight. Sure we are gov."

So, you get a 2:1 or 3:5 odds of being attacked during a single 6-hour day?
Yeah, that's not a good mechanic. No wonder it leads to distortions.

Quote from: jhkim;844493I find that it is extremely common for groups to apply modern standards rather than medieval ones to fantasy worlds. It's hard to picture how a town could function without police, but police are a modern development. While there were laws and courts, they often worked quite differently than in modern times.

There are sub-cultures that prefer not engaging the authorities even today, and there are places where police still hasn't reached. It's not that hard to find contemporary examples of how it would work, really.

QuoteA town watch wasn't necessarily set up by the government, but was rather a group of neighbors who armed themselves to keep their area safe. Today we would call them vigilantes, but then it was being a good citizen.

Indeed. Which doesn't mean the police, after it was imposed, wasn't seen as an improvement.

QuoteFor those like Ravenswing who say that people would never absolutely wear armor in town, I'm trying to understand what you mean.

Like Bren, I'd ask for more detail. Add to his questions "how big the town is", population-wise, and "how available are modes of transportation out of town".

QuoteThey go into a nearby market town. Are you saying that they would unquestionably take off their armor and carry it in their packs, rather than wear armor into the town?

They might wear them the first day, when arriving, but after that? Only if they expect trouble, indeed. And it would be a sign to the NPCs as well that they expect trouble.

Remember the old westerns. The hero goes out and behaves sort of normally, but is expecting trouble. A wizened old citizen notices a minor sign and without breaking his concentration, tells the people to get the kids off the streets, because lead is going to fly.
That's the effect of the PCs putting on armour that I'd expect, assuming that they were seen as protectors by the citizens.

QuoteI don't have any specific references on the point, but that doesn't sound like narratives I read like the historical Icelandic sagas or the Song of Roland. I would picture the warriors as coming into town and mostly doing what they liked - because warriors generally seem rowdy and arrogant. If they caused too much trouble some people would gather a mob to oust them, but especially if they were spending a bunch of money, they might instead be welcomed.

I'm struggling to remember a moment when some jarl was ambushed and had his armour on. Mind giving me a reference to the specific saga? I've got a Bulgarian translation sitting on my bookshelf in the other room.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;844502I am totally fine with people projecting modern stuff back. I've been reading history books for decades and I am still unclear on how law and order was handled in many places. I do find it fascinating though that you had other structures or institutions in place that handled issues we would handle with a modern police force (or that the town watch was often more about keeping the population from rebelling, being attacked by outsiders and putting out fires than enforcing local ordinances).

I'd simply rely on the recollections of people that had more experience with "justice that doesn't involve the authorities".

QuoteBut the world is big and you have places where things approaching a police force kind of exist. Some of the stuff I've been encountering in my research for historical China is surprisingly advanced in that respect (at least by the Song Dynasty).

And then there is the "there is police, but we don't want it to meddle" situation:D!

QuoteI'm all for a knowledgeable GM exploring these things, because they pretty interesting and can add something to the setting (also lack of a modern police force presents a challenge that happens to work well with may of the conceits of fantasy RPG adventures). But if the GM doesn't have that background or knowledge, I'm okay with Barney Fife keeping tabs on the locals.

Me too, as long as I've been warned it's the case. I'd make a different character otherwise.

Quote from: Ravenswing;844572Haven't said anything of the sort.

Of course, if people had a high expectation of trouble -- as opposed to the Dungeon Fantasy standard of "There could be a random encounter any second! -- I expect they'd be kitted up.

If there were riots in the streets, I expect people would be kitted up.

I just object to the premise that Everyone Would Wear Armor All The Time, And Without Any Ill Effects To Boot.

right.

as before, there are reasons one would wear armor in town.  Border areas, slum areas, or if the system has possible lethal encounters in town set.

Parades, military forts, etc.  sure.

but as I said before, those can be very different from court or a civilized city.

Quote from: LordVreeg;844602right.

as before, there are reasons one would wear armor in town.  Border areas, slum areas, or if the system has possible lethal encounters in town set.

Parades, military forts, etc.  sure.

but as I said before, those can be very different from court or a civilized city.

Right.  If you don't want people to wear plate armor in town, don't make the town so dangerous that you need to wear plate armor.

As far as the AD&D encounter tables in town... "encounter" also includes things like merchants and prostitutes.  Further "context is everything," and you'll have a much different experience in a crowded marketplace on a bright sunny afternoon than if you're out wandering the alleys and byways after midnight.

Just like any city nowadays, imagine!

Quote from: Omega;844519quick demo. Rolling up a full day. 48 checks (which would not really be the case as you'd be spending time off the streets in stores, etc where encounters might not happen.)
2 daytime encounters: a Beggar (who did not have any secrets!) and a Gentleman.
3 night-time encounters, 9 Bandits + leader, 8 elven Ruffians (one of which is a level 7 Assassin!), and a level 8 NG half-orc Cleric with 4 lesser clerics.

EXACTLY!  And seriously, is anybody surprised that city streets can be dangerous at night?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;844605Right.  If you don't want people to wear plate armor in town, don't make the town so dangerous that you need to wear plate armor.

As far as the AD&D encounter tables in town... "encounter" also includes things like merchants and prostitutes.  Further "context is everything," and you'll have a much different experience in a crowded marketplace on a bright sunny afternoon than if you're out wandering the alleys and byways after midnight.

Just like any city nowadays, imagine!

Leave us not forget the AD&D Random Harlot table.


And in a sophisticated city, there are such things as court armor and weapons.  One does not want the reputation of being a border-town bumpkin...

Quote from: AsenRG;844594So, you get a 2:1 or 3:5 odds of being attacked during a single 6-hour day?
Yeah, that's not a good mechanic. No wonder it leads to distortions.

No. Just a fair chance of bumping into "something" during the course of wandering the town or city. They arent all automatically hostile. You encounter bandits during the day and they are just casing some location, or the party out as possible targets. Think of it as those rare things that stand out amidst the general populace.

The tables were there for when the DM had not pre-prepped a town or just wanted some quick inspirations or ideas. Or for solo play.

But based on that table. Wandering towns and cities was not safe. PCs had reason to stay armed and armoured.

BX had a 1 in 6 chance of an encounter in a city, but far fewer hostile ones. And was only checked 3-4 times a day. And even those were not necessarily auto hostile. They might even be friendly.

You need to determine "Armour" and you need to think aboutthe weather a lot more.

I have worn chain mail on LARPs (mail shirt elbow to mid thigh) over a sheepskin jerkin and its toally painless wear it for 48 hours straight sleep in it run , clibm just etc etc ... however a chain hood and coif gets to be a pain in the arse after about 10 minutes.

Likewise a breastplate isn't a big deal  (Until you sit down at a table to eat) but anything round your shoulders or legs becomes very annoying very fast.

A helmet is constantly annoying.

Now living in Singapore the heat is a killer. Wearing a heavy shirt or jeans and doing anything vaguely physical is painful. Armour.... fuck off.

to be honest adventure gear has never been well thought out. When you watch movies , like LotR, where the producers have thought about what you woudl actually wear to adventure in and compare it to what D&D characters wear... No one wears full plate if they ever plan to climb up a cliff or wander into a cave (its not about weight its about the lax of flexibility and squeezing through gaps and stuff.
No one wears metal greaves or a helmet with antler on it...
Adventurers would wear a mail shirt, boots, leather gloves, thick trousers, leather cap , maybe leather bracers on their arms. No one is wearing a cloak, or chain mail bikini, or lots of plate armour.

If you were to extend that realism to what aventurers wore then showing up in town in a mail shirt and your standard kit would be fine.