Quote from: Spinachcat;954500I provide a general knowledge map.

Ancient people knew lots of stuff about their local area and they had no TV and no cellphones. Instead, they had booze and gossip.

The booze leads to tall tales, exaggerated stories, and slips of the tongue about secrets.

The gossip - which includes bard song, oral storytelling, grandma's recollections - allowed people to understand what was where in relation to them. Maybe the average commoner couldn't draw an modern satellite map, but he could damn sure tell you where the roads went, what was the next towns, how many days to interesting locale XYZ and much more.

I know it sounds crazy but humans used to talk to each other...for freaking hours....about all sorts of random shit.

My general knowledge map is a physical representation of what the PCs know or have heard or have experienced as travelers themselves.

Yes, for me the map represents PC knowledge, not an actual map. The character would probably not have a satellite view of the world (though fantasy worlds with flying creatures & wizards may have quite accurate maps), but they will know a lot about inhabited regions. My Varisia group get the Varisia map; my Nentir Vale group get the Nentir Vale map; my Karameikos group get the Karameikos (& now Northern Reaches) map, my Wilderlands group get the local Ghinarian Hills map.

Quote from: Spinachcat;954500My general knowledge map is a physical representation of what the PCs know or have heard or have experienced as travelers themselves.

What I want to point out is that the actual geographical map is something that PCs are unable imagine. It would be even logical, that average person can't even read a map properly and navigate with it - hell, they may not be skilled to READ at all.

It is true that they know the surrounding, but each person imagines it differently. The distances is in days right - not miles, meters, kilometres. This is the part of immersion that showing a perfectly drawn map is losing.

For example compare these historical maps:
Quite accurate artistic map from 1930's (Estonia):
http://pood.regio.ee/sites/default/files/styles/product_detail_large/public/product_images/koppel_eessti_piltkaart.jpg?itok=92RQGLEe

Here is 15 century map of same region (Livona):
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Livland_15jh.png/350px-Livland_15jh.png

And here is even more ancient representation of the region:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/c8/1b/33/c81b3305e48716f4dfdf3f7c70414cf2.jpg


I think it is fascinating how off the geographical representation is. 2 days of walk may be 4 days. I imagine it would be next to impossible to find the next settlement, when going off-road into the wilderness. The last map has the two island (Saaremaa, Hiiumaa) not nort-south, but east-west . Good luck navigating with that.


But most of all I agree, that it is very hard for the GM to communicate the geography to the players so that they would not feel completely lost.

Quote from: jux;954550It is true that they know the surrounding, but each person imagines it differently. The distances is in days right - not miles, meters, kilometres.

Except the PCs must know merchants, or have traveled themselves?

Quote from: jux;954550This is the part of immersion that showing a perfectly drawn map is losing.

That's why I give the players the imperfect map.

What they get is far more representational, but useful enough to add to immersion because they can make somewhat informed choices.

Quote from: jux;954392I mean the world map. Especially for sandbox style games or hex crawls.

I give my players a map, but it's generally not the map.  I generally do my maps electronically, as layered image files, so I have an "explored" layer that blacks out everything they haven't found yet.  Turn that layer on, turn a couple other layers off, export to a flat image, and that's what I make available to them.

If they find an in-game map, then I provide a separate image for that, drawn independently of the map, and it's up to them to figure out how the two maps relate to each other.

It depends on the region and how well settled it is. For heavily settled lands I don't mind sharing fairly accurate maps (at least showing features known to most cartographers). Rarely explored areas or places only talked about in stories do not have accurate maps, else they would not be so mysterious, so at best the players might be able to get a rough sketch of some features if they can find someone who had been to the area.

Quite often the whole point of venturing into these areas is to be the ones who make the map and gain fame as the first explorers to properly catalog the area.

Quote from: jux;954392I mean the world map. Especially for sandbox style games or hex crawls.

I am more against showing the map for the players, when it's like typical dark ages/fantasy world or post apocalypse. These first level murder-hobos most likely have never seen a map of their local area. I like the idea of using a map as a prop. It should be a valuable item when they find it.

And when travelling somewhere new, I like the idea of getting lost. Even with the map. I would not want to screw my players too often with that, but always pointing the right "gps coordinates" is not very immersive in my opinion.

So when doing a hex crawl, is it actually meant that players have the map in front of them and they choose which direction to go next? It may be player friendly, but seems they are too much in control in such case. Also, I am not a fan of showing battle maps either, but this is a different story.

Just like you, no, the GM's maps represent the actual world, and maps are just attempts to show what's known about that, and are not perfect. I think there's a valuable fundamental effect of having the map used for what's actually there be different from any maps the players get to see. Getting (& making though exploration) maps that show a bit more (or just different views) of parts of the world become a major goal/reward/experience.

Getting lost and dealing with unexpected rain and weather and other circumstances are major elements of play. Terrain isn't just there for pretty decoration. Having characters with appropriate skills and area knowledge and equipment etc also makes a big difference. All those things and more combine to make the world something real that matters, as opposed to superficial scenery that's ultimately meaningless and has no effects.

Here is what I did today:

Step 1: Make the hex map with hexographer

[ATTACH=CONFIG]832[/ATTACH]

Step 2: Remove the hex lines and numbers, and change the ratio a bit

[ATTACH=CONFIG]833[/ATTACH]

Step 3: Upload it into fresh paint. Break up the hexes and draw in some details

[ATTACH=CONFIG]834[/ATTACH]

Step 4: Print it out and hand it to the players.

You now have a handout map for the players, and also a keyed map for your DM-use. Enjoy.

I show them the map if their characters would know the map.

Quote from: jux;954392I mean the world map. Especially for sandbox style games or hex crawls.

Sure, if the PCs have access to a map then why not show the players?

I sometimes have maps with various levels of detail, so they might see a map with some kingdoms and a few major cities, or they might have a map with more on as they become more familiar with the area.

I often have a GM map that only I see, as it has "So and so's Lair" which helps me but ruins it for the players.

Quote from: jux;954392I am more against showing the map for the players, when it's like typical dark ages/fantasy world or post apocalypse. These first level murder-hobos most likely have never seen a map of their local area. I like the idea of using a map as a prop. It should be a valuable item when they find it.

Or they can just buy a map. Unless maps are state secrets, they should be available. I know if I were a PC then I would like a map so I have control over where I can go.

Quote from: jux;954392And when travelling somewhere new, I like the idea of getting lost. Even with the map. I would not want to screw my players too often with that, but always pointing the right "gps coordinates" is not very immersive in my opinion.

As someone who regularly gets lost even with a map, maps are generally overrated. Sure, they are fine at telling you where things are but not always that great at telling you how to get there.

PCs should still need to make a roll to find something on a map, unless it is blatantly obvious.

Quote from: jux;954392So when doing a hex crawl, is it actually meant that players have the map in front of them and they choose which direction to go next? It may be player friendly, but seems they are too much in control in such case. Also, I am not a fan of showing battle maps either, but this is a different story.

If they have obtained a map of the complex beforehand, then they can use the map, otherwise they have to map it themselves. I don't have a master map that I show them as it leads to all kinds of questions. I know some people have a map that they keep covered with blank paper cutouts that they remove to show what is on the map, that is fine until you realise that everything is to the right, so don't bother exploring the left part.

Ive wanted to do some maps with HeroScape. But so far havent been able to pick up the D&D set.

Quote from: Azraele;954744Here is what I did today:

Step 1: Make the hex map with hexographer

[ATTACH=CONFIG]832[/ATTACH]

Step 2: Remove the hex lines and numbers, and change the ratio a bit

[ATTACH=CONFIG]833[/ATTACH]

Step 3: Upload it into fresh paint. Break up the hexes and draw in some details

[ATTACH=CONFIG]834[/ATTACH]

Step 4: Print it out and hand it to the players.

You now have a handout map for the players, and also a keyed map for your DM-use. Enjoy.

I'd suggest to draw the player's version of the map by hand from memory. The distorted computer one is still almost as detailed and accurate as the original hex map. It just looks cruder.

A real map, especially a low-tech map, is not going to show every detail of what is there, nor probably even get the terrain and shapes / directions accurate, though it is probably still good enough to get you from place to place if you go from one named town to the next and ask locals how to get to the next named place all along the way.

Quote from: Skarg;954971I'd suggest to draw the player's version of the map by hand from memory. The distorted computer one is still almost as detailed and accurate as the original hex map. It just looks cruder.

A real map, especially a low-tech map, is not going to show every detail of what is there, nor probably even get the terrain and shapes / directions accurate, though it is probably still good enough to get you from place to place if you go from one named town to the next and ask locals how to get to the next named place all along the way.

Well it is a map, Skarg ;-)

Well, it's a perfectly proportional (at large scale) map except for the squashing and low-level details, showing all of the terrain accurately including the approximations used by the GM to regulate movement and encounters. Why give all of that information out? It almost certainly over-represents the level of information that would actually be available to people in the game world. Large-scale relationships are one of the harder things for non-surveyed maps to get right, but the technique you used doesn't alter that. Even if your world somehow has accurate maps, giving the players the same abstraction you're going to use as the GM to assess what happens during travel is more than is generally determinable even by looking at a modern topographic map, since real places aren't generally mappable into neat terrain type hexes.

Of course, if you really don't care and don't want to have that layer of exploration, ok, but I think it's an interesting layer to have, and one that's not obvious so many don't know what they're missing.

Quote from: Skarg;954971I'd suggest to draw the player's version of the map by hand from memory. The distorted computer one is still almost as detailed and accurate as the original hex map. It just looks cruder.

Now that's a great idea!

Quote from: Skarg;955043Well, it's a perfectly proportional (at large scale) map except for the squashing and low-level details, showing all of the terrain accurately including the approximations used by the GM to regulate movement and encounters. Why give all of that information out? It almost certainly over-represents the level of information that would actually be available to people in the game world. Large-scale relationships are one of the harder things for non-surveyed maps to get right, but the technique you used doesn't alter that. Even if your world somehow has accurate maps, giving the players the same abstraction you're going to use as the GM to assess what happens during travel is more than is generally determinable even by looking at a modern topographic map, since real places aren't generally mappable into neat terrain type hexes.

Of course, if you really don't care and don't want to have that layer of exploration, ok, but I think it's an interesting layer to have, and one that's not obvious so many don't know what they're missing.

Yeah I didn't mean to crap on your awesome suggestions Skargy old chum. I just happen to have another filter that I guess you lack at your table; my player's limited knowledge and attention spans. Between that and the telephone game of their personalities there's a staggering warping effect even on the most accurate of props.