Wizards ran a "save my game" article recently that has been striking a chord in me for some time.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060714a
here's some excerpts:
Quote from: Middle bitsReal-life, in-person D&D isn't like that. It requires you and everyone else in your gaming group to perform the same level of assessment, prioritization, and reallocation of time/life resources and to coordinate that activity so that everyone is on the same page at the same time. Something that scrambles one or two people's schedules (a friend comes in from out of town, someone gets sick, had to work late, burned out and tired from a rough week at work, kids have a sleepover, celebrating Uncle Ted's birthday, big paper due next week, have to finish the flooring before company comes over tomorrow) can be enough to derail the game for everyone else. Then what do you do? You individually have arranged your schedule to game, but now there's no game.
The solution might be to find new friends who are more reliable. This is a point where the economic model of D&D as an activity breaks down, because D&D is not a discrete and interchangeable commodity. D&D is a social activity with friends, a context for relationship, shared experience, and group storytelling. You can't just say, "Well, Friday 7:00-11:00 is my D&D time, but since my group isn't meeting, I'll go play D&D somewhere else." You could go ahead and play with two people in a campaign designed for five (or however large your group is), but most players and DMs in my experience have a certain sense of quorum they like to meet before agreeing to game. We're all busy and have other things that need doing, and if we feel like the game will not be as fun with a skeleton crew, we'd rather bag it and come back next time with the full group (we hope).
Quote from: The ConclusionThink about how much you want to game, how long of a break you want to take, or whether you need to find a new group that can match your schedule. Heck, this is why many gaming parents teach their kids D&D, so they can combine doing things with the kids with getting to play. But if your kids aren't interested (or if only one is and the others aren't), do you play with just the two of you? What do you do with the others in the meantime, and what do you do with them as a dedicated activity in the way that gaming with your one aspiring gamer is?
There are no easy answers and no simple methods for organizing your life. D&D makes things more complicated because it is a social, team game. What you can do and when you can do it has to match up with a bunch of other people. It's also something we love to do. That's why we're reading an advice column on a D&D website.
Don't confuse commitments with cop-outs or excuses with reasons. If you'd rather be doing something else than playing D&D, go for it. But don't pack your hobbies in the attic without taking a good hard look at what you have, what you do, and what you want.
so, what does everyone think? how do you personally go about dealing with groups that just aren't reliable for playing with?
Quote from: ThjalfiWizards ran a "save my game" article recently that has been striking a chord in me for some time.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060714a
here's some excerpts:
so, what does everyone think? how do you personally go about dealing with groups that just aren't reliable for playing with?
I drop them and find a new one. :idunno:
Quote from: KrishnathI drop them and find a new one. :idunno:
I can't really relate to this attitude. I'd guess you must be in your early 20s. As one gets older, just finding a new group gets less and less easy. In my experience, everyone's circle of friends begins to shrink as one gets into one's 30s and continues into one's 40s. This is because of a lot of the reasons cited in the article quoted above - careers, children, relocation, etc. There really aren't a lot of social pools available for 30+ something people to draw upon to expand their circles. Younger folk have a lot of outlets - the world in general, at least the Western world, seems to be a lot more accomodating to the young - clubs, shops, universities, cons, etc. Take a look around sometime, and you'll likely see that most of those at such places are, at the oldest, in their 20s.
So it begins to look bleak for someone like me, 40, who has been without a group in a long while. Finding people within the ballpark of my own age to game is tough. I've been considering very seriously lately just dropping the pretense of having this hobby, and selling off a lot of my game books. It's a rather melancholic feeling.
I'm undergoing a similar problem myself.
For nearly 4 years now, I've been part of a game that has been going nigh continuously, every weekend, Saturday nights 3pm to 6pm and very infrequently going beyond.
The game was online, it was the next best thing for the group of friends I had grown acquainted with. Two in britain, 4 in Tennessee and lil' ol me in California. It was a great deal of fun.
However, after the DM was surprised by being released from his job, he experienced a bout of unemployement where he ran a fucking rocking game as he had more time to prepare encounters and the like. But with his new job and business policy, maintaining a steady schedule was beyond his control. Add in the fact that we're all fairly busy this summer with activies (weddings, performances, vacations) - the game was looking less and less likely. For an awesome game, it seemed a pity to just let it go, to die a quick sudden death.
The DM graciously moved the game onto the planewalker message board (it's a PS game) and it's slowly ramping up.
This past weekend I ran my first D&D game in ages. It was great, but almost all of the players are MechE students (more rigorous, time intensive coursework, than say - English). All the players knew that the game would be infrequent, at the most, once a month - just a great way to spend an evening blowing off steam, but not a regular game.
Thus, I think, that having expectations appropriate to your lifestyle is going to be important. D&D does require a commitment of time and having groups that will agree to eachother's time constraints is a blessing.
I currently game with a group by brother games with--in another town, about two hours away. I'm lucky if I can get with them once a month. We currently have about three campaigns going (each with different masters), so the general plan is that multiple sessions are ready, and the one gets run that fits the people who have shown up. But I can't pretend it's convenient to drive that far for a game. At the same time, it would be more work to test out a more local game.
I have toyed with the idea of introducing some of my work colleagues to gaming, but the problems that Colonel Hardisson mentioned loom large. . .
Quote from: ColonelHardissonFinding people within the ballpark of my own age to game is tough.
I'm not sure setting that limit is the best idea. Six years back, being in my early 30's at the time, the group I was gaming with wasn't willing to move from AD&D to 3e. In large part because they didn't seem to want to spend the time to check into 3e muchless learn the rules. They were my age +/- 4 years, mostly plus, and had lots of other stuff going on in their lives.
So I went out and found some new people that wanted to play this new fangled 3e. Those people were about 20 years old. One of them later brought his younger sister who was in grade 12 at the time. Those people are now also friends outside the game that come over for my kid's birthday parties and such.
Likewise I just did the same thing with a new group when the current group was playing D&D, and I had a hankering for playing Shadowrun. Two games/week is a bit much at times, but the way it works out is that at they both have at least 1 session a month that gets missed because of player non-attendance. This new group though isn't much younger than me, just a few years.
EDIT: Incidentally I found both of those groups via the internet.
Quote from: KrishnathI drop them and find a new one.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonI can't really relate to this attitude. I'd guess you must be in your early 20s.
I'm 36 the only thing I did different was I found a new one then dropped them. You know like when you were a kid you would line up the next girlfriend before you dumped the current one.
I was with a group but they met mid week, started about 7 and finished at 10, it was just to short a time to be worth going for so I started looking for a new group, luckly I found one only a few streets over (I live in the suburbs of Liverpool, not a gaming capital, we don't even have a gaming shop anymore) and I managed to find a group, and made new friends.
Sure your circle of friends shrinks as you get older, but doesn't stop you looking for new friends. The internet is handy tool for doing this, as is a gaming shop. I'm the oldest in the new group but the youngest is in his late 20's. They play on a Sunday evening 7 until midnight. Most of them play in another group on a different day as well.
Quote from: BagpussSure your circle of friends shrinks as you get older, but doesn't stop you looking for new friends. The internet is handy tool for doing this, as is a gaming shop.
Add in having moved 2600 miles 3 years ago, and then having moved about 200 miles from where I initially moved to about 6 months ago, and it becomes even more difficult to establish new roots. It isn't a matter of not trying. Sometimes circumstances make it very tough.
Quote from: willpaxI have toyed with the idea of introducing some of my work colleagues to gaming, but the problems that Colonel Hardisson mentioned loom large. . .
It does get tough. My original group is separated by literally thousands of miles...and the others actually have no interest in gaming anymore anyway. My main group, which I ran back in the 80s and into the 90s, are similarly dispersed. The area I lived in didn't have any dedicated gaming shops until long after both groups had disintegrated, and even I had quit gaming for a number of years before a shop opened up a few miles away. I got back into it with the release of 3e. I found a group then - the ages of the people were mostly in their late 20s to mid thirties, with one guy in in his late 40s - but I eventually had to move. I have long-time friends living less than an hour away - but they have no interest at all in gaming. Believe me, I've tried to spark interest in it for years.
I mean, when I say I'm looking for someone in the same age ballpark as I am, I'm not limiting myself to people 39-40+. When it comes right down to it, I guess I'm just saying I'm not gaming with teenagers. I'm just more comfortable with people closer to my own age. I think that's true of most people.
I've been gaming with my current group for about two years now. We play every thursday night. Before that I had not been gaming for about two years. Old problems, former lovers, an overload of work, kids ect caught up with my old group. Gaming was still vastly enjoyable - addictive - but not very practical. When we found we could not commit to the game, we decided to stop playing. We still meet up at least once a week, but we do not game.
I've always said, that I only game with friends, so for those two dry years,I considered revising my philosophy. But, I couldn't do it. I expect a lot out of the games, I want to spend time with people who I can get along with and whose company I enjoy. Gaming with strangers, just did not appeal to me.
I was much like the Colonel, experiencing a very melancholic vibe. The phrase pretense of having a hobby really resonates with me. One fine day -and it did really turn out to be fine - a friend reintroduced me to some folks who I sort of knew, back in the day, who were looking for a GM. They only played D20 stuff, mostly fantasy and were, to mind my at least totally unlike my old crew.
I reluctantly - okay, to be honest, I wanted to see, if I still had the old magic in me -agreed to run a couple of fantasy games for them. This turned into two years of gaming using everything from Feng Shui, Unknown Armies, oMage, Star Frontiers, Over the Edge, WFRP and Star Wars d6 amongst others.
Truthfuly if this opportunity had not landed on my doorstep, I don't think I would really be out there trying to find a group. I know what like. I know how I want to spend my time. I may have recruited some new folks into the game eventualy, but I'll never know for sure. I'm just lucky I got reaquainted with these folks.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: David RGaming with strangers, just did not appeal to me.
I'm actually the same way. Gaming with strange people, fine. :mischief: But not strangers. Which is why I wouldn't continue to game with people unless they were relatively quickly becoming friends. If they aren't people I could see hanging out with after the game then they're not going to be people I'm going to continue to play with.
Making new friends is good. Because having friends are good, and turnover happens due to life happening (moving, changing jobs, kids, etc.).
Quote from: David RI've always said, that I only game with friends, so for those two dry years,I considered revising my philosophy. But, I couldn't do it. I expect a lot out of the games, I want to spend time with people who I can get along with and whose company I enjoy. Gaming with strangers, just did not appeal to me.
Same here. What I did with the last group I had was establish myself as a regular at the closest game shop - which had not existed when I first dropped out of gaming - and got to know the owner. He eventually invited me to be in his group, which he ran right at the shop. This took the better part of a year. Then I moved. I became a regular at some shops I found near my new home, but between work and other obligations, I moved again before I could get a new group. Now, I'm in even less of a good area for gaming, it seems, as the local shops, while friendly enough, seem to be more oriented towards CCGs, minis, and board games.
Quote from: David RTruthfuly if this opportunity had not landed on my doorstep, I don't think I would really be out there trying to find a group. I know what like. I know how I want to spend my time. I may have recruited some new folks into the game eventualy, but I'll never know for sure. I'm just lucky I got reaquainted with these folks.
I think if I was back in the area I'm originally from, I'd have a much easier time in getting a group together. I might be able to locate some folks I knew way back when. I reckon it's just gonna take some time to establish new contacts in a new location.
QuoteI think if I was back in the area I'm originally from, I'd have a much easier time in getting a group together. I might be able to locate some folks I knew way back when. I reckon it's just gonna take some time to establish new contacts in a new location.
The Internet is your fiend! Er, I mean friend.:mischief:
I know it seems kind of wierd at first. My wife initially thought I was
totally off my rocker. But I just used a public setting at first for meeting and gaming. Then once I was completely comfortable that these were people that I was willing to be around, i.e. become friends with, it moved from there. For me it only took one or two meetings the successful times, but I understand for you it might take a few more for you if it took a year of working up to it visiting the gaming store.
I can say I haven't stuck with a group every time doing this, but the successful ones happened fairly quickly. I think the key with those is that it was via internet messageboards, so I had at least a bit of repore (not to mention filtering) with at least one of the other people going into the first face to face.
It's sort of like dating, but [hopefully] without the groping. ;)
Quote from: ThjalfiWizards ran a "save my game" article recently that has been striking a chord in me for some time.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20060714a
here's some excerpts:
so, what does everyone think? how do you personally go about dealing with groups that just aren't reliable for playing with?
It happened to me with single players.
I kick them out, plain and simple. My gaming hours are too precious for me to waste them, not even taking into account the hours I spend making the setting/prepping the game.
This has happened to me more than a few times.... I'll start up a campaign and put a lot of work into it, only to have it fall apart because the other players were unreliable. It's actually somewhat short-circuiting my current game, where I have four devoted players and I'm the fuck up who screws them over. I'm not used to being able to develop actual depth and preparation for games anymore after college.
In high school we had a regular, almost religiously weekly game. PERIOD. We were a fairly large group of devoted players who loved to play and loved the game, so we showed up ready to rock.
Unfortunately, part of this goes into the "my time is more valuable than your time" problem. If one person shows up late, they may think nothing of it because THEY can stay up or blow off responsibilities, but with the other players this may not hold true.
I remember for a while I had a group of 3 players, one of whom was routinely late and unprepared. It was a shitty time wasting all that prep just to sit around and wait (on average) an hour to two hours for him to show. Eventually we ended up rescheduling to when they would actually show and didn't tell him, and the tables reversed--- when HE had to wait, all hell broke loose and the game disintegrated. I still don't talk to him because of the shit that came out during that wait time. Part of the article is great, but doesn't address the basic question BEHIND the basic question of "do you want to game?"
That is--- Do you want to game WITH THESE PEOPLE? If you can't get along with someone socially or casually, you probably won't be happy in a gaming situation. It seems obvious but there's always that guy nobody likes but nobody wants to let on that nobody likes them. I call him Gamer Bob. There's a Gamer Bob in every group--- the guy who's on the outside of the clique, who's joined late, or who people can't really get along with generally but do alright in a gaming situation. Hell, I think I have a Gamer Bob in my current group, too, but we're just getting into the swing of it so momentum is still building. I'll have to see.
Quote from: Radu the Wanderer[...]That is--- Do you want to game WITH THESE PEOPLE? If you can't get along with someone socially or casually, you probably won't be happy in a gaming situation. It seems obvious but there's always that guy nobody likes but nobody wants to let on that nobody likes them. I call him Gamer Bob. There's a Gamer Bob in every group--- the guy who's on the outside of the clique, who's joined late, or who people can't really get along with generally but do alright in a gaming situation. Hell, I think I have a Gamer Bob in my current group, too, but we're just getting into the swing of it so momentum is still building. I'll have to see.
I was like that at first, but eventually I became enough of a bastard that I didn't mind one bit of saying "Sorry dude, I just don't think your personnality jives with my group". My campaigns are fun and spotless because of that.
And if he starts crying, you can always throw in an "It's not you, it's me".
I recently went through a long dry spell initiated by one player going completely nuts and ruining everyone's fun to the point where no one felt much like gaming anymore. Then I relocated, and had kids. My best friend lives in the same general ara now (1hr drive) and we tried to put something together a couple of times, but it just didn't happen. Recently we decided to try again, but with a new system- the first session was rough. Really rough. Aside from the slow page flipping rule search, there was one major problem. We invited another old friend over- he hadn't gamed since his teens and was really interested, or seemed to be anyway. He took forever to create a character- in contrast I did my first character in this system in less than 15 minutes less than an hour after I bought the game. Slow character gen isn't such a horrific offense though, but in this case it just added to the mounting annoyance. He named his character Mucas Maximus and it all went downhill at light speed from there. He didn't play like a fourteen year old boy- he played like the worst kind of fourteen year old boy. He didn't even try to get into the spirit of things. It was like he wanted to role play, but was somehow too cool to engage. Four hours of misery ensued.
After a long talk, my best friend and I decided to ditch him and the campaign he murdered in the womb. Now we're into our third session of something else- same system, just a different genre- it's just the two of us, but that's not so bad. Sure, I'd like some more players, but, considering the way things can go, I think I want to have a bit more momentum before I introduce any noobs.
I have discovered that I can get an *awesome* gaming experience with Skype and some tools (online dice-rollers, desktop sharing software). As such, I've been able to set up games reliably with people thousands of miles away.
In fact, some good friends just moved to Canada--rather than the not-gaming we were doing f2f (because they lived 2hrs south) I think we can set up something reliable with them two time-zones distant.
I think the article is dead on: you need the same time commitment. On the other hand, since telepresence has never been better, it's easier to find new people than it ever was.
-Marco
Kids make you young Colonel - I'll say that much. In my current group the oldest player is 18. I'm 31. The gap is at times uncomfortable, but for the most part I just demature a bit and roll with it. The game is still fun, though it's irksome to lose a player to a grounding by their parents.
My gaming group all enjoys the 'sport', mostly because we all have the same general expectation: It's something fun to do while sitting around and socializing (drinking).
Well, most of the time. There have been a couple campains that were serious and a lot more rewarding, but we're too goofy to run every campain as though our lives depended on it.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonAdd in having moved 2600 miles 3 years ago, and then having moved about 200 miles from where I initially moved to about 6 months ago, and it becomes even more difficult to establish new roots. It isn't a matter of not trying. Sometimes circumstances make it very tough.
It shouldn't be too hard to find a group within your age range down there. I've tried probably two dozen groups in the past 3 years trying to find a good fit, and consistency. Most groups I've found are all in the 30-45 age range. I've had more trouble finding players in the mid 20ies range than anything else. And number of groups and geographic region hasn't been too much of a problem.
With things like Yahoo DnD groups, college clubs, Meetup.com, Conventions, and group finders on EN World, WotC, RPG.net, etc, I've experienced a wide variety of groups.
It's harder to find one whose style and available time meshes with yours in my experience, more so than the age range. Being comfortable with strangers is a challenge, and getting past the "this isn't my familiar old group of friends" can be tricky. A lot of groups seem to want the "old school friends" feel to them, and aren't always welcoming to new blood.
Quote from: PookaKids make you young Colonel - I'll say that much. In my current group the oldest player is 18. I'm 31. The gap is at times uncomfortable, but for the most part I just demature a bit and roll with it. The game is still fun, though it's irksome to lose a player to a grounding by their parents.
Heh, had a game awhile back with a 13 year old boy and 14 year old girl in with a bunch of late 20s and early 30s folks. They worked out pretty well all told and brought some enthusiasm to the old guard. And it's kind of ironic that the group fell apart due to childish behaviour, and it wasn't coming from the actual children. :p