In general, do you prefer fantasy settings that are epic and full of majestic sights, castles and giant statues and magical wonders and stunning vistas? Or are you more at home with a setting full of filthy cities and pirate dens and half-starved peasants living in mud-huts?
I like Wilderlands of High Fantasy - it has both!
I also like Yggsburgh, which is more to the grimy end, as is Nentir Vale. So I guess if I have to choose I'd go grimy, but I really like the contrast best.
Grimy.
But only because I'd prefer straight historical over fantasy if I was given the choice. I find most "epic" fantasy lazy and derivative; far too often instead of any consistency or hard thought being applied, they resort either to "a wizard did it" or traditions.
Epic. Give me Middle-Earth over Nehwon any day. (I haven't read enough Conan to make the comparison to the Hyborian Age.)
I love both classic high fantasy and sword&sorcery. So both Tolkien and Howard. I am quite fatigued with dreary and gritty low-fantasy. Something that I think many don't get these day is that sword & sorcery in a Conan sense is just not grim and gritty but also escapist, romanticist and life affirming.
For general fantasy I'll take shining castle's and pegasus riding knights farthing rainbows over yet another "life is shit and you are dirtlow scum trying to get rich before the world ends in a month".
I enjoy both equally. After a few adventures in one, I tend to start craving the other.
Quote from: Teodrik;1029088I love both classic high fantasy and sword&sorcery. So both Tolkien and Howard. I am quite fatigued with dreary and gritty low-fantasy. Something that I think many don't get these day is that sword & sorcery in a Conan sense is just not grim and gritty but also escapist, romanticist and life affirming.
This. I like the base to be edging ever so slightly into epic, with notable but muted dashes into mythic, grit, horror, comedy, fairy tales, and so forth. Jack Vance's "Lyonesse" trilogy probably comes the closest to the tone I want.
It really depends on the game system.
For whatever reason I love using Palladium Fantasy 2E for High Intrigue Fantasy Settings. Probably because the characters are so powerful and detailed from the get-go.
0E is pulp, obviously. Though I've run 5E in a pulp fantasy setting as well.
For Epic Fantasy I prefer 2E or C&C. Not too detailed, but with enough options to make sweeping and broad actions inside the setting possible and everyone gets to shine.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1029058In general, do you prefer fantasy settings that are epic and full of majestic sights, castles and giant statues and magical wonders and stunning vistas? Or are you more at home with a setting full of filthy cities and pirate dens and half-starved peasants living in mud-huts?
Why must it be either-or?
Why not filthy slums in the shadows of majestic castles and sky pirate dens on the lip of an active volcano?
Frankly, the gleaming towers just make the squalor of the masses more profound.
Grime. So tired on stumbling over magic items and scrolls etc, every encounter. Low magic For The Win. Sure you can resurrect your 3rd level rogue if you go on a quest to challenge the gods which may include your death.
The Hyborian Age had plenty of both. I like that.
Adventurewise, I hate "save the world" type games.
Grimy without being grimdark.
Dark and grimy all the way!
Sometimes a play on dystopian that hits both. For example, the players see an excellent gorgeous castle full of riches and whatever, only to reveal the peasants are forced to live in the sewers and are secretly poisoning the royalty. (Kind of a fun play on H.G. Wells "Time Machine").
Then again, it also does com down to what the campaign is about.
I like a gameworld to have a variety of places arranged on an interesting, consistent and detailed map. It seems to me almost every world should include some grimy places, and since I like consistency, the shiny places want some background and explanation rather than just being all Duloc is a perfect place (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjhybvyn-rZAhWB7YMKHdhWCrQQuAIILzAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DX81AoBcVnaA&usg=AOvVaw1pFp15SCFnwN8Irhm0W_YQ) or "behold the excessively vertical towers of impossibility" or whatever - they need some foundation that holds some water or they fail to impress and may backfire into disbelief.
"'E must be the King... 'e 'asn't got shit all over 'im."
Given that both tend to be Associated with extremes I say neater and instead lean toward Heroic fantasy.
Maybe you will become something great maybe you won't. Good chance dead is dead and that meany staples of dnd magic are A no go.
*in case anyone needs A definition
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeroicFantasy
Grimy. I love me some Middle-earth and Narnia, but Hyboria and the Old World of WFRP 1e make for great games.
I prefer low magic, not necessarily grimy
I don't mind high fantasy (D&D and the like), since that's what I grew up on, but as I've gotten older, I've drifted toward preferring a grittier, low magic style of game.
I highly dislike most games that people call grim or gritty. In nearly every case what they mean is, "It's still fantasy but with haphazardly inserted Adult Content(R)."
I like amazing architecture and tales of ancient curses. I like legends of dragons and pitched screaming battles against orcs that are frothing at the mouth. These things still need contrast, though. Normal folk need to be fairly normal and not every event can be epic. Otherwise you will just kill the tone by setting a new standard that becomes expected.
It is very much why I dislike "gritty" fantasy with Game of Thrones as popular example. I'm not easily offended or squeamish at all. But the grime and grit has to be im contrast to something or it is valueless. If you took the dark and grit out of it, what are you left with?
I unapologetically love grimdark. GW and 40k is my jam.
That said, my OD&D game - even though sword & sorcery - is all about majestic sights, wonders and vistas.
Quote from: Chris24601;1029115Frankly, the gleaming towers just make the squalor of the masses more profound.
Exactly!!
Quote from: Chris24601;1029115Why must it be either-or?
Why not filthy slums in the shadows of majestic castles and sky pirate dens on the lip of an active volcano?
Frankly, the gleaming towers just make the squalor of the masses more profound.
Pretty much this. This isn't an Either/Or situation for me.
I'm not a huge fan of Grimy. The problem with Epic can be when it strays into "Fantasy Super Heroes" territory, but if it doesn't then I'm OK with it. My preferred style on the grimy side is that Conan vibe. Not anything that is about grinding misery, or grimdarkness, etc. On the epic side it is something that has a sense of wonder, a whiff of fairy tale, and feels a bit more humble than the kinds of characters later D&Ds tend to produce.
I prefer low magic epic fantasy.
I like the romantic fantasy stuff. Doesn't have to be epic.
Dark Souls flavored.
A high powered world where everything is fallen into ruin. Nasty enemies that are powerful but not necessarilly evil ( you are the intruder in their realm ).
So, epic, I guess
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029132The Hyborian Age had plenty of both. I like that.
Adventurewise, I hate "save the world" type games.
You could argue that in Hour of the Dragon, when Conan killed Xaltotun, he stopped him from completing his endgame goal of bringing back the city of Python and resurrecting Acheron from the depths of time, and thus did save the world.
It's all in the presentation. Racing to stop cultists from completing the ritual that will raise Cthulhu or fighting the "Dark Lord" isn't the only way to do it.
I'm not sure that "High vs. Low" or "Epic vs. Grimy" explains my preferences.
"Overt vs. Covert" or "Present vs. In Your Face" or "Magic vs. Technology" might be a better way to phrase it.
Look at the Hyborian Age as Gronan pointed out. There's lots of magic present. Conan runs into Sorcerers, monsters or Demons in nearly every story. in Tower of the Elephant there's a city controlled by an immortal sorcerer and in the Scarlet Citadel, another immortal sorcerer essentially runs a kingdom. Then there's Stygia, Khitai, the Seers of Yimsha. In Aquilonia, the Priests of Asura (even though you don't see the direct action) have capabilities of magical communication and travel that wouldn't seem out of line in a D&D world, and even though they are hated, no one impedes or attacks their funeral barges because of their magical defenses.
Magic is frickin' everywhere. But, it's not In Your Face. People don't light lamps with magical lighters. Stygia is rumored to go to battle with Priests of Set who conjure plagues, but there is no Nemedian College of War Magic with squads of Pyromancers.
Magic is still dangerous and very powerful sorcerers are as rare or rarer than high-end academics.
I'd say generally I like magic, even if powerful, to not have gotten to the part where it starts replacing technology.
As far as types of campaigns go, I like worlds that are more human/realistic/verisimilar. But just because a Sword & Sorcery PC might be broke and on the run from his last titanic debauch, doesn't mean he can't hire on as a caravan guard and end up saving the world. :D
Quote from: RPGPundit;1029058do you prefer fantasy settings that are epic and full of majestic sights, castles and giant statues and magical wonders and stunning vistas? Or are you more at home with a setting full of filthy cities and pirate dens and half-starved peasants living in mud-huts?
Is there a setting in particular you are thinking of that does not contain both?
Perhaps "AD&D 1st Edition vs. AD&D 2nd Edition" would be closer to what the Pundit really meant? ;)
Quote from: RPGPunditdo you prefer fantasy settings that are epic and full of majestic sights, castles and giant statues and magical wonders and stunning vistas? Or are you more at home with a setting full of filthy cities and pirate dens and half-starved peasants living in mud-huts?
Quote from: CRKrueger;1029673Is there a setting in particular you are thinking of that does not contain both?
What CRKrueger said.
In general, my answer is yes - I like many different kinds of fantasy. That's my answer for a lot of things, but I feel like it's good to repeat it. I like epic fantasy like great heroes in Middle Earth for gaming, as well as non-epic fantasy like playing a small group of missionaries in Harn who just want to establish a new church. I like clean fantasy like princes and princesses of Amber, as well as grimy fantasy like In a Wicked Age playing strange monsters and victims.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1029680Perhaps "AD&D 1st Edition vs. AD&D 2nd Edition" would be closer to what the Pundit really meant? ;)
I began playing with 2nd edition, so that no doubt flavors my answer. I like the heroic vibe from 2nd edition and I don't see the rules as significant different enough to matter when compared to 1st edition.
Obviously, 1st edition was dungeon and treasure focused and it did that well. 2nd edition opened the door a little bit for a larger style of play and I prefer it.
I thought low-magic and epic would be an unpopular response but it seems to be pretty common.
Lord of the Rings was nice. Game of Thrones has epic elements (less so A song of Ice and Fire). Conan has a mix as well. Purely grimy and impoversihed isn't my most favorite setting, although anything can be enjoyable if well done.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1029680Perhaps "AD&D 1st Edition vs. AD&D 2nd Edition" would be closer to what the Pundit really meant? ;)
BAH! If I had to pick a game from that era it'd be BECMI or Palladium Fantasy (1st Edition).
Quote from: RPGPundit;1029058In general, do you prefer fantasy settings that are epic and full of majestic sights, castles and giant statues and magical wonders and stunning vistas? Or are you more at home with a setting full of filthy cities and pirate dens and half-starved peasants living in mud-huts?
Obviously both, I play Exalted:D!
My default D&D setting is Sigil, and for other games it's Post Cyberpunk (in the sense that Megacorporations are no more evil than they are in the real world) so certainly both. If you're going to go with Medieval Authentic, then grime is certainly the order of the day. But I do like those fantasy cities with clean streets and shiny towers.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1029058In general, do you prefer fantasy settings that are epic and full of majestic sights, castles and giant statues and magical wonders and stunning vistas? Or are you more at home with a setting full of filthy cities and pirate dens and half-starved peasants living in mud-huts?
Yes.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1029672I'm not sure that "High vs. Low" or "Epic vs. Grimy" explains my preferences.
"Overt vs. Covert" or "Present vs. In Your Face" or "Magic vs. Technology" might be a better way to phrase it.
Look at the Hyborian Age as Gronan pointed out. There's lots of magic present. Conan runs into Sorcerers, monsters or Demons in nearly every story. in Tower of the Elephant there's a city controlled by an immortal sorcerer and in the Scarlet Citadel, another immortal sorcerer essentially runs a kingdom. Then there's Stygia, Khitai, the Seers of Yimsha. In Aquilonia, the Priests of Asura (even though you don't see the direct action) have capabilities of magical communication and travel that wouldn't seem out of line in a D&D world, and even though they are hated, no one impedes or attacks their funeral barges because of their magical defenses.
Magic is frickin' everywhere. But, it's not In Your Face. People don't light lamps with magical lighters. Stygia is rumored to go to battle with Priests of Set who conjure plagues, but there is no Nemedian College of War Magic with squads of Pyromancers.
Magic is still dangerous and very powerful sorcerers are as rare or rarer than high-end academics.
I'd say generally I like magic, even if powerful, to not have gotten to the part where it starts replacing technology.
As far as types of campaigns go, I like worlds that are more human/realistic/verisimilar. But just because a Sword & Sorcery PC might be broke and on the run from his last titanic debauch, doesn't mean he can't hire on as a caravan guard and end up saving the world. :D
Amen.
I would argue (and in fact designed a supplement around the notion) that based on your criteria, Hyboria and Middle Earth have more in common with each other than either does with contemporary game-worlds such as Faerun, Krynn, Ptolus, Eberron, etc.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1029672I'm not sure that "High vs. Low" or "Epic vs. Grimy" explains my preferences.
"Overt vs. Covert" or "Present vs. In Your Face" or "Magic vs. Technology" might be a better way to phrase it.
Look at the Hyborian Age as Gronan pointed out. There's lots of magic present. Conan runs into Sorcerers, monsters or Demons in nearly every story. in Tower of the Elephant there's a city controlled by an immortal sorcerer and in the Scarlet Citadel, another immortal sorcerer essentially runs a kingdom. Then there's Stygia, Khitai, the Seers of Yimsha. In Aquilonia, the Priests of Asura (even though you don't see the direct action) have capabilities of magical communication and travel that wouldn't seem out of line in a D&D world, and even though they are hated, no one impedes or attacks their funeral barges because of their magical defenses.
Magic is frickin' everywhere. But, it's not In Your Face. People don't light lamps with magical lighters. Stygia is rumored to go to battle with Priests of Set who conjure plagues, but there is no Nemedian College of War Magic with squads of Pyromancers.
Magic is still dangerous and very powerful sorcerers are as rare or rarer than high-end academics.
I'd say generally I like magic, even if powerful, to not have gotten to the part where it starts replacing technology.
As far as types of campaigns go, I like worlds that are more human/realistic/verisimilar. But just because a Sword & Sorcery PC might be broke and on the run from his last titanic debauch, doesn't mean he can't hire on as a caravan guard and end up saving the world. :D
I also agree with this. I like my setting to be fantastical, as I'm sure I'm said before, probably in this thread. Like flying castles and continents, where select individuals have access to alien techniques that may or may not be actual magic, but like CR says, it's not 'In Yo' Face'.
Grimy and Grimdark are two different things, you guys.
I know, but many settings might well combine all three.
Quote from: AsenRG;1030737I know, but many settings might well combine all three.
Ironically, Warhammer, the poster child for all things Grimdark does all three.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1030673Grimy and Grimdark are two different things, you guys.
I guess we need a primer.
JG
This is yet another reason why the original Arneson/Gygax paradigm of multiple PCs per player, played at different times, is genius. You can have a myriad of experiences in the single campaign.
Quote from: CRKrueger;1029673Is there a setting in particular you are thinking of that does not contain both?
Warhammer40k and Blue Rose;)?
Quote from: James Gillen;1030812I guess we need a primer.
JG
Grimy implies a dirty sort of setting. A strong criminal element, or poverty, societal breakdown, etc.
Grimdark is about the atmosphere: it's an atmosphere of hopelessness and pessimism.
You can have happy-go-lucky adventures in a grimy setting; you can also have a dystopia setting that's all clean and sleek but is in fact grimdark.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030928This is yet another reason why the original Arneson/Gygax paradigm of multiple PCs per player, played at different times, is genius. You can have a myriad of experiences in the single campaign.
Worked well for us in Dark Albion.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1031370Grimy implies a dirty sort of setting. A strong criminal element, or poverty, societal breakdown, etc.
Grimdark is about the atmosphere: it's an atmosphere of hopelessness and pessimism.
You can have happy-go-lucky adventures in a grimy setting; you can also have a dystopia setting that's all clean and sleek but is in fact grimdark.
Totally true. But I think he was asking for a primer of settings that are "all grimy" or "all epic".
Because, let's look at this example.
A city of fallen glories, which was a big center before the gods got angry and destroyed it with fire from the skies. Ancestor spirits roam the streets, demons create their own cults, and the undead are only contained by a line of salt around the nearby place where the Underworld can be accessed each night - and conversely, the beings of the Underworld can access the world of the living. It's a place where many live in crushing poverty, while the trade in slaves, gems and spice makes the rich even richer, and opulent parties are the order of the night. The place attracts many scholars, and one can discover the artefacts of the Golden Age if one consults enough of them.
Grimy? Epic? It's
both and you can find adventures in either part of the same city.
I like a mix of both.
My campaigns are set primarily in a set of city states based on the Renaissance Italy city states, but as adventurers the party is often hired to go to exotic places and fetch things or just prove things exist, and those places tend to have epic grandeur. The cities are grimy and filthy, but out in the wilderness are the ruins of ancient kingdoms that will take your breath away.
There's a mountain visible from the road to the sole Dwarven stronghold that's been carved, Mt. Rushmore style, into the likeness of an ancient Dwarven hero king, except a river has been rerouted so that it pours out in a massive, frothing white waterfall from beneath his nose and cheeks to form his beard. Everytime I run a campaign for a new group of players and they eventually find a reason to head to Steelguard Citadel, I describe the road up into the mountain and how they come around a bend in a pass and suddenly there before them is this 500 foot tall dwarven face staring down at them, with this great flowing beard of rushing water, and at least one player's jaw drops.
Quote from: AsenRG;1031717Totally true. But I think he was asking for a primer of settings that are "all grimy" or "all epic".
Because, let's look at this example.
A city of fallen glories, which was a big center before the gods got angry and destroyed it with fire from the skies. Ancestor spirits roam the streets, demons create their own cults, and the undead are only contained by a line of salt around the nearby place where the Underworld can be accessed each night - and conversely, the beings of the Underworld can access the world of the living. It's a place where many live in crushing poverty, while the trade in slaves, gems and spice makes the rich even richer, and opulent parties are the order of the night. The place attracts many scholars, and one can discover the artefacts of the Golden Age if one consults enough of them.
Grimy? Epic? It's both and you can find adventures in either part of the same city.
Yes, sure there can be both. And probably most Epic settings have something grimy about them, and most Grimy settings have something epic to be found, but you can typically define a setting by one or the other. Lankhmar has epic bits but it's mostly grimy. Elric has grimy bits but it's mainly Epic.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1032121Yes, sure there can be both. And probably most Epic settings have something grimy about them, and most Grimy settings have something epic to be found, but you can typically define a setting by one or the other. Lankhmar has epic bits but it's mostly grimy. Elric has grimy bits but it's mainly Epic.
Lankhmar is a point in your favour. But Elric's setting is only grimy if you're outside of Melnibone, and not a nobility, so it mostly strikes a balance:).
In Melnibone, Elric's setting is not grimy, "just" gruesome;).
Gritty and realistic. Not much of a fan of Disney Middle Ages, where there is a spell for everything. I prefer this for most genres, not only fantasy. It makes for better roleplaying, because it forces players to think about their actions.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;1033539Gritty and realistic. Not much of a fan of Disney Middle Ages, where there is a spell for everything. I prefer this for most genres, not only fantasy. It makes for better roleplaying, because it forces players to think about their actions.
Have you looked at Lion & Dragon?