Quote from: Trond;1040994Something I didn't really think of before, but Runequest 3 and Pendragon have an appearance score instead of the more common Charisma. I was thinking that this is not necessarily a bad thing, as it is a bit more specific on whether the character is good looking or not (albeit still open to interpretation. People have different taste after all). Some games may have what essentially amounts to both (e.g. Artesia). What is your preference?

My preference is either Appearance only, or both.

Because sometimes you need to know if you're really, really, really good-looking.

JG

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1041100I tend to agree with this. Appearance should be a game feature in games where such things are important, but rarely fits the mold that other attributes use as helping with resolution mechanics.

I actually prefer what Champions/Hero System does, and uses (predominantly) the "Presence" stat. That removes any mystery on whether a nose-picking orc chieftain, Attila the Hun, or heck Sloth from Goonies (any character whose threat of action dictates your behavior as much as any action they actually do) has a really high score or really low -- if they can control your behavior, it's high.

I use Presence in my game. There's more to the 'social' attribute than just how good-looking or charming you are. Those do play a part, but your demeanor and personality are just as important. I always use Clint Eastwood as an example. He's not the best looking or most charming man in the movie, but you sure as hell know it when he's on screen. He just gets your attention without trying. He's got amazing Presence.

I like Hero 6e's approach. Your hero can be as square-jawed handsome or drop-dead gorgeous as you like, that's fluff. But if you want that to affect gameplay, you pay points for it.

Charisma. Personality and/or how you present yourself trumps looks.

Ive lost track of the number of "pretty people" I've met who came across as utterly unlikable or as just damn untrustworthy and shallow.

Also appearance is often altered by what a person wears and how they arrange themselves.

Quote from: Omega;1041262Charisma. Personality and/or how you present yourself trumps looks.

Ive lost track of the number of "pretty people" I've met who came across as utterly unlikable or as just damn untrustworthy and shallow.

Also appearance is often altered by what a person wears and how they arrange themselves.

Exactly.  And that's only IF I have to pick one.

For a non-skill-based game, I would go with Charisma. Broader attributes are better, and appearance is very subjective.

I'm also good with neither, and have social skills that instead cover the functions of Charisma.

I think appearance is too specific and has too narrow a set of situations to justify it's own stat. Maybe a perk/trait/feat/whatever would fit it better.

The question I think is: when is it useful to have the kind of granularity in regards to appearance that making it a stat provides?

I suspect that the answer is not that often.

If a system is point buy then it also needs to be worth as much as other stats or players will dump it, although this is not really a problem if stats are randomly generated.

As with many others, if I must pick between the two, I pick charisma.  Though I prefer how Hero presence works, and that's effectively how I've run charisma in D&D for longer than I can remember.

Also agree that being particularly attractive (or ugly) is better represented as a trait of some kind, not an attribute.

Quote from: The_Shadow;1041238I like Hero 6e's approach. Your hero can be as square-jawed handsome or drop-dead gorgeous as you like, that's fluff. But if you want that to affect gameplay, you pay points for it.

Well, previously they had a Comeliness stat that had no real game effect.  In 6th Edition Steve Long did away with that and created the Striking Appearance Talent (basically limited Presence).  You would NOT BELIEVE the level of flak that resulted on the Hero Games boards over doing that.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;1041202Because sometimes you need to know if you're really, really, really good-looking.

JG

Yes, sometimes you might need to:).

The players can roleplay the attitude of the character.
And I can combine that with the appearance stat much more easily than with a "force of personality" stat that can confirm, or contradict the actual roleplaying at the table;).

Quote from: TJS;1041355The question I think is: when is it useful to have the kind of granularity in regards to appearance that making it a stat provides?

I suspect that the answer is not that often.

If a system is point buy then it also needs to be worth as much as other stats or players will dump it, although this is not really a problem if stats are randomly generated.

The problem is that to make it granular youd need all sorts of modifiers because looks alone arent what really make up a persons beauty or lack thereof. Good clothes, jewelry, makeup, aftershave, etc all add or subtract from the basic. With the right tools a person can near totally alter their looks in various ways that can sometimes drastically alter how they are perceived.

The times I have seen appearance be an issue is in effectively targeted situations. Usually an NPC liiking for someone pretty for purposes good or evil. Otherwise it doesnt come up.

In my own RPG I instead had at chargen the option to pick up a trait of being either attractive or ugly. Which meant that the PC stood out for both good and ill and made sure the players knew that selecting this was going to attract trouble and pose a hindrance. Without that trait the PC could claim they looks whatever within reasonable limits.

Then there is the potential problem of different races. Human beauty or ugliness might not mean much, or mean totally different things, to an elf, a dwarf, or an orc. So in the end its better to base off of a Charisma equivalent stat as this tends to be easier to judge and mesh without a ton of rules.

Charisma.  Physical Appearance, if it's to be statted at all, should be some kind of special quality that gives you a bonus (or penalty, if you're really ugly) to certain types of reaction rolls where physical beauty would be a factor.

I like Charisma and Comeliness for female characters and Leadership and Ruggedness as the stats for male characters.