Greetings!
Do you like using Ghouls in your campaign as part of the monster roster?
I have grown to like using Ghouls. I give them extra strength, a strong bite attack, and some other physical athletic and movement abilities to juice them up. I also like giving them class levels, armour, weapons, some intellectual ability, and generally using them as strong low and mid-level opponents and villains.
I think that Ghouls have more potential than just as hordes of cannon fodder for the Players to mow down like wheat.
What do you think, my friends?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 04:40:22 AM
Greetings!
Do you like using Ghouls in your campaign as part of the monster roster?
I have grown to like using Ghouls. I give them extra strength, a strong bite attack, and some other physical athletic and movement abilities to juice them up. I also like giving them class levels, armour, weapons, some intellectual ability, and generally using them as strong low and mid-level opponents and villains.
I think that Ghouls have more potential than just as hordes of cannon fodder for the Players to mow down like wheat.
What do you think, my friends?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I like using ghouls, but I make their appearance part of the background. The last ghouls I used started out as a wife and daughter who cannibalized their husband and two sons during a long winter where several local villagers starved from lack of adequate food supplies (the village was raided by orcs at harvest time). Eating their own family members caused them to be cursed into ghoul form. The mother-daughter ghoul team stay near their house lair and try to lure passersby on the road into their clutches for dining. They have not used armor and weapons but are very cunning and like traps.
In any given campaign, I like ghouls in one of three roles. I like to vary it from time to time to keep the players on their toes:
1. The traditional horde of frightening zombie substitutes, with paralyze touch (because the D&D zombie isn't that frightening).
2. Some variation of what Jeff said, though I'm more likely to do that with undead abilities that are a bit more severe than the D&D ghoul. In that case, calling it a "ghoul" is misleading, but I don't mind the players making assumptions and then learning otherwise, as each campaign is different.
3. Fritz Leiber's take in Lankhmar, where "ghouls" are a society of people, with transparent skin, and some odd behaviors that set them outside normal human society.
Basically, I'm either going to go with the classics or even the tropes, full bore, or if I'm going to subvert the expectations, I want to go full bore with that.
Undead are favorites of mine. I even like them as playable races like vampire and even skeletons.
But, ghouls are not high on my cool list. I'm not even sure I have ever used them. I don't eliminate them from the lore. They exist. You just don't encounter them.
Recently dead zombies as well, but that is two fold. They're African monsters and should stick to Voodoo magic stereotypes. The other is the famous zombie saturation meme. We've over used them and ruined their reputation.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 28, 2022, 08:34:36 AM
3. Fritz Leiber's take in Lankhmar, where "ghouls" are a society of people, with transparent skin, and some odd behaviors that set them outside normal human society.
Basically, I'm either going to go with the classics or even the tropes, full bore, or if I'm going to subvert the expectations, I want to go full bore with that.
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in
The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 28, 2022, 08:34:36 AM
3. Fritz Leiber's take in Lankhmar, where "ghouls" are a society of people, with transparent skin, and some odd behaviors that set them outside normal human society.
Basically, I'm either going to go with the classics or even the tropes, full bore, or if I'm going to subvert the expectations, I want to go full bore with that.
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Yeah. Unless I'm playing Shadowrun, which has it's own specific take on ghouls, I almost exclusively use Lovecraft's ghouls. I've already got zombies, mummies, draugr, skeletons... I don't need another type of undead.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 28, 2022, 05:32:19 AM
Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2022, 04:40:22 AM
Greetings!
Do you like using Ghouls in your campaign as part of the monster roster?
I have grown to like using Ghouls. I give them extra strength, a strong bite attack, and some other physical athletic and movement abilities to juice them up. I also like giving them class levels, armour, weapons, some intellectual ability, and generally using them as strong low and mid-level opponents and villains.
I think that Ghouls have more potential than just as hordes of cannon fodder for the Players to mow down like wheat.
What do you think, my friends?
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I like using ghouls, but I make their appearance part of the background. The last ghouls I used started out as a wife and daughter who cannibalized their husband and two sons during a long winter where several local villagers starved from lack of adequate food supplies (the village was raided by orcs at harvest time). Eating their own family members caused them to be cursed into ghoul form. The mother-daughter ghoul team stay near their house lair and try to lure passersby on the road into their clutches for dining. They have not used armor and weapons but are very cunning and like traps.
Greetings!
Very cool, Jeff! I like the mother and daughter farmer thing--being so innocuous--and actually being some really disturbing villains! That's awesome, my friend. Cursed into being Ghouls! So awesome. Make them savage and vicious.
I also favour adding more grounded villains and opponents in a campaign. It flows from people's real experiences and relationships, things that people can relate to. I also think epic, super-villains have a place--but like cooking spices, a little is good, too much is bad.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 28, 2022, 08:34:36 AM
In any given campaign, I like ghouls in one of three roles. I like to vary it from time to time to keep the players on their toes:
1. The traditional horde of frightening zombie substitutes, with paralyze touch (because the D&D zombie isn't that frightening).
2. Some variation of what Jeff said, though I'm more likely to do that with undead abilities that are a bit more severe than the D&D ghoul. In that case, calling it a "ghoul" is misleading, but I don't mind the players making assumptions and then learning otherwise, as each campaign is different.
3. Fritz Leiber's take in Lankhmar, where "ghouls" are a society of people, with transparent skin, and some odd behaviors that set them outside normal human society.
Basically, I'm either going to go with the classics or even the tropes, full bore, or if I'm going to subvert the expectations, I want to go full bore with that.
Greetings!
Excellent, Steven Mitchell! I agree. I like all of your approaches. I tend to do the same kinds of things.
I don't tend to think D&D needs dozens of different kinds or races of Undead. Pushing a few individual kinds and varying them by special abilities or attributes is more than adequate. I think lots of mileage can be had by playing with the intelligence, physical abilities, political and social dimensions. Ghoul warbands, Ghoul Kingdoms! Vampires aren't the only Undead that can organize and have hierarchies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My Ghouls are of the more Arabic mythology variety* (closer to a vampire or demon) with a variety of powers traditionally attributed to them (such as taking on the form and memories of those they consume and mesmeric powers to draw in otherwise wary victims) and basically fill so much of the Vampire's traditional niche that I ended up dropping vampires entirely from the setting.
Indeed, I sort of did a wholistic rewrite or the undead in general, such that they are THE most existential evil facing the mortal world and are divided into mindless animates, wights (intelligent with a corporeal body; ghouls are demonically enhanced wights and what D&D calls a mummy and Lich are just wights wrapped in disease-ridden bandages to protect them from direct sun and wights of spellcasters respectively) and wraiths (intelligent incorporeal undead).
* Part of breaking hard from the OGL meant going back to original myths and legends for inspiration and much of my demonology ended up borrowing heavily from Middle Eastern myths and legends with Ifrit, Jinn, Kul'ul, Shedim and demon lords such as Moloch (embers), Pazuzu (dust), Lilith (miasma) and Tiamat (brine). Ghouls just naturally followed from that.
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 28, 2022, 08:34:36 AM
3. Fritz Leiber's take in Lankhmar, where "ghouls" are a society of people, with transparent skin, and some odd behaviors that set them outside normal human society.
Basically, I'm either going to go with the classics or even the tropes, full bore, or if I'm going to subvert the expectations, I want to go full bore with that.
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Anyone interested in ghouls should read Brian McNaughton's
The Throne of Bones. The ghouls are a lot like Lovecraft's, but the fantasy setting (which is excellent) is more like something Clark Ashton Smith would invent. Far more gory and (ugh) erotic than something Lovecraft would write, but that is in line with the sort of thing CAS would write too. I suspect it was ghouls like these that Tom Moldvay had in mind when he included an inter-dimensional stairway to the Kingdom of the Ghouls in his
Castle Amber module.
Yes, love undead in general, but it occurs to me there have been few on-screen portrayals of ghouls that I can recall...the Solomon Kane movie had what I thought were ghouls beneath the church/cemetary, any other on-screen portrayals of ghouls you can account for?
Quote from: I on December 28, 2022, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Anyone interested in ghouls should read Brian McNaughton's The Throne of Bones. The ghouls are a lot like Lovecraft's, but the fantasy setting (which is excellent) is more like something Clark Ashton Smith would invent. Far more gory and (ugh) erotic than something Lovecraft would write, but that is in line with the sort of thing CAS would write too. I suspect it was ghouls like these that Tom Moldvay had in mind when he included an inter-dimensional stairway to the Kingdom of the Ghouls in his Castle Amber module.
That honestly sounds pretty awesome. I'm a huge CAS fan and sexy ghouls might be good for a laugh at least, so I'll have to add that to my reading queue. Thanks.
IIRC the Amber module(s?) were openly inspired by CAS' Averoigne stories, so the connection there might be more than incidental.
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:38:42 PM
Quote from: I on December 28, 2022, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Anyone interested in ghouls should read Brian McNaughton's The Throne of Bones. The ghouls are a lot like Lovecraft's, but the fantasy setting (which is excellent) is more like something Clark Ashton Smith would invent. Far more gory and (ugh) erotic than something Lovecraft would write, but that is in line with the sort of thing CAS would write too. I suspect it was ghouls like these that Tom Moldvay had in mind when he included an inter-dimensional stairway to the Kingdom of the Ghouls in his Castle Amber module.
That honestly sounds pretty awesome. I'm a huge CAS fan and sexy ghouls might be good for a laugh at least, so I'll have to add that to my reading queue. Thanks.
IIRC the Amber module(s?) were openly inspired by CAS' Averoigne stories, so the connection there might be more than incidental.
If you like Clark Ashton Smith then I can practically guarantee you'll like
The Throne of Bones, then. It's less like the Averoigne stories and more like the Zothique stories/"Empire of the Necromancers"/"Necromancy in Naat" in feel, though. There's only one ghoul sex scene in the whole book, but it left me scarred for life, LOL. Not all of the stories are about ghouls; most are about humans in this very grotty, decadent world, but the ghouls are intelligent and have their own culture, a bit like those of Lovecraft.
My ghouls are like fast zombies from the video game Left 4 Dead (with hulks, runners, blob subtypes, etc).
In my setting, I have a goddess of the eaters of the dead, and for the priests that follow her, the highest honor is to be eaten by her most (un)holy creation, the ghoul :)
Needless to say, there are not a lot of high-level living priests that are still following her, but there are several high-level undead priests :)
I like ghouls and used them in several campaigns, including my Western SilverRush PbP here. :)
My preference is for a curse upon cannibalism that turns one into undead, and that these undead (by choice or distress) develops its own society over the generations. It makes them retain human-level long-term planning and cunning, having a society to stay cohesive in the face of survival stress. By living on the fringes of civilization due to dietary necessity, like vampires yet nowhere near as presentable, they have to play at the margins so it doesn't all fall apart -- but in numbers they recognize they are formidable. However, just like vampires, all predators no prey is unworkable, so they are still predators who have to cull their own ranks when stressed prey is not plentiful.
I'm also cool with them keeping some remnant of their past life knowledge, including warrior fighting or magic or thieves' skills, just to remind that they were once mortals, and sapients are always the scariest threats. This opens a reason for players to not kill them on sight, as they may have undead knowledge of very long ago events -- and even undead grudges. Along with reasons to cull competing predators, this creates a fun temptation of alliances of convenience for PCs.
Having reasons to talk to ghouls and trade favors with them is far more chilling and insidious than just another threat out to kill you. I like to think of it as my junior varsity version of a deal with the devil. Knowing they wait at the fringes to collect, or even worse tempt, is a delicious unsettling element for my campaigns.
Quote from: Opaopajr on January 01, 2023, 11:10:56 AM
I like ghouls and used them in several campaigns, including my Western SilverRush PbP here. :)
My preference is for a curse upon cannibalism that turns one into undead, and that these undead (by choice or distress) develops its own society over the generations. It makes them retain human-level long-term planning and cunning, having a society to stay cohesive in the face of survival stress. By living on the fringes of civilization due to dietary necessity, like vampires yet nowhere near as presentable, they have to play at the margins so it doesn't all fall apart -- but in numbers they recognize they are formidable. However, just like vampires, all predators no prey is unworkable, so they are still predators who have to cull their own ranks when stressed prey is not plentiful.
I'm also cool with them keeping some remnant of their past life knowledge, including warrior fighting or magic or thieves' skills, just to remind that they were once mortals, and sapients are always the scariest threats. This opens a reason for players to not kill them on sight, as they may have undead knowledge of very long ago events -- and even undead grudges. Along with reasons to cull competing predators, this creates a fun temptation of alliances of convenience for PCs.
Having reasons to talk to ghouls and trade favors with them is far more chilling and insidious than just another threat out to kill you. I like to think of it as my junior varsity version of a deal with the devil. Knowing they wait at the fringes to collect, or even worse tempt, is a delicious unsettling element for my campaigns.
Greetings!
Opaopajr! My friend! That all sounds fucking awesome, man. I like the sentient thing, remembering parts of their former, mortal lives. The Ghouls having some kind of society and unity. Yeah, definitely brings the creep factor in for the players. *Laughing* I love it! Lots of adventure seeds and potential with having more organized and intelligent Undead, too.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
:) Glad to hear it, buddy! 8)
I recommend easing players into the nightmare with ghouls having a pause of recognition and then moving onto an easy target or readily available corpse. Like, ghoul stops, looks at the party, and asks "Are you going to eat that?" grinning mischievously. If players go full aggro, then ghoul flees screaming "Fuck it, I'll come back later when you are done with it!" It'd be funny to see players decide what to do with all the murdered bodies they leave behind, knowing they're feeding an ecosystem. ;)
It also eases players into the idea that you can talk with smart enemies. Once I cross that threshold the fun really begins! Might refer a party to ask sage advice of a ghoul lord where X legendary weapon was last seen, or how to find ancient spell's ingredient listed with an archaic name. The advanced stuff comes to negotiating deals of coexistence... and the compromise that may entail.
I did not tip my hand fully in my PbP game here before, but the ghouls have an actual contract with the silver mining boomtown to the newer graveyard. Since a mining town has lots of fighting and killing, and thus corpses and burying, the native elders negotiated terms with the underground ghouls. Since silver keeps evil at bay, but the foreign settlers absolutely will not stop coming to mine the silver, the elders had to negotiate how some of the silver could be mined -- and which scary underground evils they can negotiate with to be the buffer between mortals on the surface and greater horrors underneath. In the end a ghoul necropolis bargain fed by reliable corpses from Western barfights & street duels was cheaper to keep underground territory occupied than let anything else scarier saunter in now that the silver ore protection was being removed. 8) A genuine deal with devils to keep away worse demons.
Quote from: I on December 29, 2022, 03:37:20 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:38:42 PM
Quote from: I on December 28, 2022, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Anyone interested in ghouls should read Brian McNaughton's The Throne of Bones. The ghouls are a lot like Lovecraft's, but the fantasy setting (which is excellent) is more like something Clark Ashton Smith would invent. Far more gory and (ugh) erotic than something Lovecraft would write, but that is in line with the sort of thing CAS would write too. I suspect it was ghouls like these that Tom Moldvay had in mind when he included an inter-dimensional stairway to the Kingdom of the Ghouls in his Castle Amber module.
That honestly sounds pretty awesome. I'm a huge CAS fan and sexy ghouls might be good for a laugh at least, so I'll have to add that to my reading queue. Thanks.
IIRC the Amber module(s?) were openly inspired by CAS' Averoigne stories, so the connection there might be more than incidental.
If you like Clark Ashton Smith then I can practically guarantee you'll like The Throne of Bones, then. It's less like the Averoigne stories and more like the Zothique stories/"Empire of the Necromancers"/"Necromancy in Naat" in feel, though. There's only one ghoul sex scene in the whole book, but it left me scarred for life, LOL. Not all of the stories are about ghouls; most are about humans in this very grotty, decadent world, but the ghouls are intelligent and have their own culture, a bit like those of Lovecraft.
So I went and picked this book up and have now read it. It is, without doubt, the
horniest collection of horror stories I have ever read. However, it is also one of the best. Thanks again for that recommendation!
Quote from: ForgottenF on February 19, 2023, 09:14:18 PM
Quote from: I on December 29, 2022, 03:37:20 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:38:42 PM
Quote from: I on December 28, 2022, 10:04:37 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2022, 10:33:59 AM
I also like the way Lovecraft uses ghouls in The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, where they're still corpse-eating semi-undead, but with a language of their own, and some semblance of a society. If I was going to use ghouls in a campaign, I'd probably experiment with the idea of a ghoul kingdom. As others have said, fantasy gaming already has enough things in the "undead humanoid that attacks you in a dungeon" category.
Anyone interested in ghouls should read Brian McNaughton's The Throne of Bones. The ghouls are a lot like Lovecraft's, but the fantasy setting (which is excellent) is more like something Clark Ashton Smith would invent. Far more gory and (ugh) erotic than something Lovecraft would write, but that is in line with the sort of thing CAS would write too. I suspect it was ghouls like these that Tom Moldvay had in mind when he included an inter-dimensional stairway to the Kingdom of the Ghouls in his Castle Amber module.
That honestly sounds pretty awesome. I'm a huge CAS fan and sexy ghouls might be good for a laugh at least, so I'll have to add that to my reading queue. Thanks.
IIRC the Amber module(s?) were openly inspired by CAS' Averoigne stories, so the connection there might be more than incidental.
If you like Clark Ashton Smith then I can practically guarantee you'll like The Throne of Bones, then. It's less like the Averoigne stories and more like the Zothique stories/"Empire of the Necromancers"/"Necromancy in Naat" in feel, though. There's only one ghoul sex scene in the whole book, but it left me scarred for life, LOL. Not all of the stories are about ghouls; most are about humans in this very grotty, decadent world, but the ghouls are intelligent and have their own culture, a bit like those of Lovecraft.
So I went and picked this book up and have now read it. It is, without doubt, the horniest collection of horror stories I have ever read. However, it is also one of the best. Thanks again for that recommendation!
Glad you liked it. I have re-read the book since we started this conversation here and there was a LOT more sex in it than I remembered. I guess only one of the scenes really grossed me out, so that's the one that stuck in my memory. I had totally forgotten that story about the necromancer who gets banished from a city and out in the wilderness his horde of resurrected undead gets slowly picked off and eaten by various scavengers. That one was hilarious but kind of sad, too. Kind of a pity the author never mapped out the world, because it would make a pretty good RPG setting.
I'm currently writing a 1E adventure that has ghouls as a prominent enemy in one of the areas. They're intended to be something to avoid fighting. They're pretty nasty as is. 3 attacks with the possibility to paralyze.
The PC party is roughly 6th level. And of course the 6th level cleric can auto-Turn ghouls. But they turn 1-12 of them. The average number of appearing given ghouls in the MM is 13. You'll need 2 successful turns. There's also a 5th level paladin in the party, turning as a 3rd level cleric gives roughly a 50/50 shot at successful turning. And so we've got a game on.
Although ghouls are easy enough to avoid if you're not encumbered or slowed by heavy armor. So I've also threw a few ghasts into the mix. The cleric is still 70% likely to turn the ghouls, the paladin just 10% likely. And the ghasts are a lot faster and generally cannot be outrun.
In all, I see this group presenting a real danger. Something that can be avoided on and off, turned on and off, and if it comes down to a fight, I think it's going to be brutal but not insurmountable.
I like it. It's the kind of encounter where everything matters.
The Ghoul empire that Kobold press has created is rather spot on for an interesting spin on the more intellegent and functional undead. They are at war with most of the underdark but are not mindless and have all the different functions of a terrestial empire all under ground.
I use them on occasion but don't care for them. The paralyze power can take a player out of the game for the duration of a combat, which can diminish the fun. It's also a very tippy power: a bit of luck can turn a moderate level challenge into a tpk very quickly if several PCs are paralyzed at once. Once in a while is fine for a feeling of danger, but I feel that if I use them frequently I'm eventually going to get that shocking tpk.