Quote from: nezach;541705They are not the same from this player's point of view.

Exactly.

Pregen = Not My Guy = Don't Give a Fuck.

Randomly Generated Guy = My Guy = Give a Fuck.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;541706Exactly.

Pregen = Not My Guy = Don't Give a Fuck.

Randomly Generated Guy = My Guy = Give a Fuck.

Yeah you typed it out better but Nezach captured it just fine also. You can ignore me though I'm just a casual gamer no harm, no foul.

Quote from: Marleycat;541700@Melan, your avatar scares me. I hope things are ok?

It's Baron Münchhausen from the 1943 movie, which I watched yesterday, and which may be one of the best fantasy movies I have ever seen, if not "the" best - wistful, respectful of its audience, erotic, surreal, human in ways you would never expect from a Joseph Goebbels production (yes), and extremely melancholy. All in sumptuous Agfacolour. What makes it scary?

I haven't read this thread yet, but I saw this and I cannot help answering:

Quote from: chaosvoyager;541701First, playing a randomly generated character and playing a pregen are EXACTLY THE SAME from a player's POV.

No, it's not. Like, not at all.

Besides, there are very few games, if any, where everything is determined randomly.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;541653La Planca's 'backstory' is a single sentence saying where he's from and where he's starting the campaign.

If you find that to be significantly different from just having a name, well, okay, then to you that's significantly different.

To put a finer point on it, I don't project conflicts into the campaign from my characters' backgrounds. There are no sworn enemies, no secret loyalties, no favors owed, no debts to repay, no reputation to live down, no friends in high places. I make that clear when I talk about Advantages and Secrets: "For this character, I decide to forego both an Advantage and a Secret, preferring to let these sort themselves out in actual play."

Remember, nothing that's written into a character's background actually happened, unless it was generated by a lifepath or similar system. It's all just fanwank and wish-listing. Having a sworn enemy that I made up whole-cloth before a single die hit the table isn't remotely as interesting to me as making an enemy in actual play.

I wonder how much of this is conditioned by the expected length of the campaign?

It would seem to me that if one expected a long 20+ plus campaign    there is probably less need for "project conflicts" because over the the course of the campaign these are likely to arise naturally. On the other hand in the game is likely to span 4-5 sessions, having some initial baggage might help.

Quote from: Melan;541721It's Baron Münchhausen from the 1943 movie, which I watched yesterday, and which may be one of the best fantasy movies I have ever seen, if not "the" best - wistful, respectful of its audience, erotic, surreal, human in ways you would never expect from a Joseph Goebbels production (yes), and extremely melancholy. All in sumptuous Agfacolour. What makes it scary?

 Baron Munchausen, classic movie. Very English though so the humor is subtle. Oh, you mean the original, cool.  What are the differences?
.
Your avatar? It's jarring, too pink compared to your previous one? It's fine actually. I'm not a fan of bright colors or clown motif.

I can change it to something different, but - clown motif? That's not a clown, that's a master swordsman.

Quote from: Melan;541732I can change it to something different, but - clown motif? That's not a clown, that's a master swordsman.

Keep it. I'll be fine.

After studying it, it looks like a Musketeer.  I've decided it's the background that throws me.

(1) do you like character generation yourself?

Yes I do, as long as it's simple and straightforward and not tedious.  I like character generation in AD&D, WHFRP, Call of Cthulhu, and even the time I played 4E it was relatively painless.  By contrast, Anima Beyond Fantasy was the worst character generating experience of my life.

(2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens?

I don't exactly get what this means, but maybe something like WHFRP's careers?  Yeah, sure, I'd play that.

(3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games which explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc?

It's called Warhammer.

(4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?

The idea that the guy who made 3E the way it is with tons of intentionally unbalanced options and needless complexity now sheepishly admitting he doesn't even like character generation makes me explode with nerd rage. I have no stake in 5E but I'm still glad this guy isn't on the team anymore.

Quote from: Aporon;541742(1) do you like character generation yourself?
  By contrast, Anima Beyond Fantasy was the worst character generating experience of my life.
 anymore.

Do not look at Alpha Omega. DO NOT. If Anima is bad, AO will melt your eyes.

Quote from: Soylent Green;541725I wonder how much of this is conditioned by the expected length of the campaign?

I think it's players conditioned to think of telling a story rather than playing a game.

D'Artagnan's backstory is that he grew up on a farm, the son of a soldier. He leaves for Paris with two goals: fight duels, and become a King's Musketeer.

I'm willing to be there are gamers who would call that a lame background.

I'm sure young d'Artagnan had friends and loves and rivals and disappointments and successes while growing up on the family estate in Gascony, but once he leaves for Paris, that period of his life is behind him and plays no part in his subsequent adventures.

Quote from: Silverlion;541749Do not look at Alpha Omega. DO NOT. If Anima is bad, AO will melt your eyes.

You actually were able to read Anime?  I tried, I did seriously but my brain exploded 5 pages in...because of that book I am now Marley Zombie. Seriously, it's like Deleria but way worse, like a bad K-9 trip that never ends.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;541753I think it's players conditioned to think of telling a story rather than playing a game.

D'Artagnan's backstory is that he grew up on a farm, the son of a soldier. He leaves for Paris with two goals: fight duels, and become a King's Musketeer.

I'm willing to be there are gamers who would call that a lame background.

I'm sure young d'Artagnan had friends and loves and rivals and disappointments and successes while growing up on the family estate in Gascony, but once he leaves for Paris, that period of his life is behind him and plays no part in his subsequent adventures.

You already know my opinion.  But those 5 things are ENOUGH!  Seriously.

1. Farm Boy
2. His father was a soldier with a sword
3. He moved to his own crib
4. He wants to learn how not to stab himself
5. He likes pussy

Classic Musketeer.

Quote from: nezach;541705They are not the same from this player's point of view.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;541706Exactly.

Quote from: Claudius;541723No, it's not. Like, not at all.

If you can show me how to tell the difference between a computer program which randomly generates character values individually vs one that simply chooses between different pregens in its database, I will concede the point.

I feel that the most important thing a character generator can do is establish ownership rather than game balance (though that's important too). But really, rolling six attributes doesn't give me any sense of ownership at all, and very little to make assumptions about the character on. And while lifepaths are awesome, they really have to be constructed to fit the setting, and are a minigame in themselves, which is GREAT FUN, but it's still separate from the primary mode of play.

One thing I do not like is the direction some RPGs are taking away from exploration and discovery play. I think a good character generator should allow you to discover who the character is, rather than construct them. However, if you've already discovered who the character is, then having a system where you can implement them as quickly and efficiently as possible is of critical importance, and any 'discovery tools' built into the chargen system just get in the way.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;541768If you can show me how to tell the difference between a computer program which randomly generates character values individually vs one that simply chooses between different pregens in its database, I will concede the point.

I feel that the most important thing a character generator can do is establish ownership rather than game balance (though that's important too). But really, rolling six attributes doesn't give me any sense of ownership at all, and very little to make assumptions about the character on. And while lifepaths are awesome, they really have to be constructed to fit the setting, and are a minigame in themselves, which is GREAT FUN, but it's still separate from the primary mode of play.

One thing I do not like is the direction some RPGs are taking away from exploration and discovery play. I think a good character generator should allow you to discover who the character is, rather than construct them. However, if you've already discovered who the character is, then having a system where you can implement them as quickly and efficiently as possible is of critical importance, and any 'discovery tools' built into the chargen system just get in the way.

Hmm ...sounds like 4e to me. Not good sir.