Quote from: Benoist;541590Just merged Mistwell's thread with this one.

Thanks Ben.

But I hate character creation in rpgs.

Well then, you're kind of of up shit creek, Monte, because characters are what (good) RPGs are about.

I'm not a big fan of origin tales and the beginnings of stories anyway.

...without which your characters are going to suck.

1. I don't like making decisions based on nothing.

Obvious statement is obvious! Figure out what to base your decisions on before you make them. If you'd bothered to write an origin story (Oh, I forgot, you couldn't be bothered.) you'd have something to work with. Or if you'd take a few minutes to discuss what the rest of your group is playing, or what kind of campaign the GM is planning; he might appreciate it. And he's doing a hell of a lot more work than creating one fucking character.

The best character I ever played was a cooperative effort between myself and the GM, which he helped me complete after I wrote the back-story and he filled me in on the other characters already being played.

2. I don't like spending a lot of time making a lot of decisions at once.

Okay, this is fair. D&D 3E/4E are both way too "fiddly" and bloated by pointless options. Gurps, Hero, the list goes on. Character generation should be simpler all around.

3. I don't like spending a lot of time on decisions that have little importance.

Then don't waste your time on them. If you find you've made a serious mistake in a game with complicated chargen, a flexible GM will let you correct it. An inflexible GM should be avoided to begin with.


That's why any game I create from here on out will, if at all possible, feature the following:

1. Lots of pregenerated characters.

Those are called NPCs, Monte. If I can't create my own fucking character, I have exactly zero interest in buying/playing your RPG, and my interest in playing a pre-gen (unless I'm at a convention) is even less than zero.

2. Fast character generation options.

Now you're talking. I've been familiarizing myself with Savage Worlds lately; the ease and speed of chargen really impress me. If I can create a character in 20 or 30 minutes, that leaves more time for writing their background story, so I'd appreciate this.
 
3. Choices that are not entirely front loaded.

Just what the fuck does "front loaded" mean anyway? On my planet a front-loader is a piece of earth-moving equipment. Speak English, damn your eyes!


Screw this, I got work to do. RPGs don't design themselves.

I can't be arsed to read the thread, sorry - for the first time since i've been here, threads are starting to multiply quicker than i can read them.

I'll say this, though. If chargen is awesome, then i can safely say that the game will also be awesome.

Quote from: Benoist;541528Monte Cook posted an interesting column today on his LJ:

"I hate character generation."

So here are the questions: (1) do you like character generation yourself?, (2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens? (3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games which explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc? (4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?

1) It depends on how much work it is.

2) No. I can't really see myself or anyone I have tended to game with enjoying that.

3) I suppose. Just not at my table.

4) I have never had any luck selling my players on pregens for one shots...much less for whole RPGs that only use pregens by design.

Making characters is fun, unless it's such a pain in the ass that it isn't. In the D&D context, somewhere about in the middle between 1e and 3e would be my preference. 3e was not too bad once you got used to it, but there shouldn't be that much of a learning curve when it comes to making your character (cue railing against how feats were handled, etc.)

(1) do you like character generation yourself?

Yes, but will say it's a bummer when a game has interesting gameplay but poor chargen or vice-versa.

(2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens?

Possibly briefly. I like Lady Blackbird, but would have to say the time I could play it is limited.

Back when TSR's Indiana Jones game came out and I saw it had no chargen, I took it back to the store. I was that put off by the idea of a game without chargen.

(3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games which explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc?

I'm perfectly okay with templates or pre-defined character types (in fact, that's to a certain extent what classes are, and I prefer those to point-buy or similar.) But you don't provide a means to tweak template characters or similar choices to your taste, I see it getting a bit stale.

(4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?


I'd like to address his points:

"1. I don't like making decisions based on nothing. I don't like deciding that my character is this great diplomat before I even get a chance to see what the adventure or campaign is going to be like"

And this would be necessary why? Do GMs really not communicate with their players about what good and bad character types would be if they have a specific set of challenges in mind? And if not, would they not present challenges that would give the players challenges in tune with what they want their characters to be good at.

"2. I don't like spending a lot of time making a lot of decisions at once."

This is fair enough. I'd be okay with a system that lets you flesh out choices in play. In fact, that's what I do when playing fate. Only the "top" of the skill pyramid is filled in for a given character; they may fill in their lesser skills during play.

"3. I don't like spending a lot of time on decisions that have little importance"

Sort of like I was illustrating above with FATE characters, I'd be okay with that.

That said, I do think that there is something to be said for making those sorts of choices. It gets you to explore the book and the mechanics. I'm going to be equipped a lot better to use an ability I read up on and pre-selected for my character than one I select in play. Or have selected for me.

Talislanta basically has pre-gens that you customise as you progress.

Quote from: One Horse Town;541616Talislanta basically has pre-gens that you customise as you progress.

Are those pregens, or like templates, kinda like Star Wars d6 with the Kid, the Ewok, the Jedi with a drinking problem and so on?

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;541594I'm not a big fan of origin tales and the beginnings of stories anyway.

...without which your characters are going to suck.

:hand:

Backstory is overrated. Develop-in-play for me, thanks.

Quote from: Benoist;541618Are those pregens, or like templates, kinda like Star Wars d6 with the Kid, the Ewok, the Jedi with a drinking problem and so on?

Well, it depends if you think of pre-gens as ready-to-go characters or as a set class/occupation/whatever, with pre-set skill values that you customise as your character gains experience (Talislanta also gives you pre-set stat values that you can adjust slightly).

Quote from: Black Vulmea;541619:hand:

Backstory is overrated. Develop-in-play for me, thanks.

I think there's a balance that needs to be struck. If you handing over a portfolio of stuff at the start of the game, that's way to much. But starting with something like 'I was a mercenary defending the great wall from the orc hoards of Azzagorn before being dismissed by the corrupt count Dyo' is desirable.

Quote from: jadrax;541622I think there's a balance that needs to be struck. If you handing over a portfolio of stuff at the start of the game, that's way to much. But starting with something like 'I was a mercenary defending the great wall from the orc hoards of Azzagorn before being dismissed by the corrupt count Dyo' is desirable.

I agree with this. I don't need a novel for the PCs in my game, but I do need a line or two that sums the character up. That's good enough and the rest can come in gameplay.

Quote from: jadrax;541622But starting with something like 'I was a mercenary defending the great wall from the orc hoards of Azzagorn before being dismissed by the corrupt count Dyo' is desirable.

I like my character to start with a name.

The only relevant backstory to me is the events of the first game-night as seen from the vantage point of the second game-night.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;541626I like my character to start with a name.

The only relevant backstory to me is the events of the first game-night as seen from the vantage point of the second game-night.

I must admit, that is not the impression I got.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(1) do you like character generation yourself?

Depends, it can be fun as hell or OHGODSOMEBODYSHOOTME.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens?

Hmm, do you mean the GM or the game system is only allowing pregens?  A game system doing it to me seems odd.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games which explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc?

Sure, I think there is room for other games, it is kind of ironic though, seeing the frontman behind the monstrosity of charop that is 3e want to dump chargen.   Maybe that's why 3e was developed that way, he assumed people were just going to freeball it as they went.  Unfortunately, in a Level system you're trapped into "forced advancement" and since there are only so many slots you can get on your way from Zero to Hero, charop is an inevitability when so many choices are available.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?

I hate long, complicated chargen that is a series of decisions based on math (point-buy I'm looking at you).  However, I love long, complicated chargen if it unfolds like a lifepath, where it fits into the actual character, with randomness included.  Chargen as a pre-game unto itself is awesome.  Chargen as a min/max charop exercise is useless, toss me a fucking pregen, let me know when you're done stroking your point-penis.  I'll just kill your min/max monster in his sleep anyway.