Monte Cook posted an interesting column today on his LJ:

"I hate character generation."

So here are the questions: (1) do you like character generation yourself?, (2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens? (3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games which explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc? (4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?

The answer is yes, except where it is no.

Heh.

I like it in some games - specifically where there's a good amount of randomization, and I get to "learn" things about the character I'm making (lifepath/career systems, for example, or just systems with a lot of random rolls).  On the other hand, point-buy games where the whole thing turns into an exercise in weighing advantage points vs drawback points - I'd sooner watch paint dry.  And in D&D (or similar games, where combat is a) deadly and b) frequent), character generation should just get out of the way and let me get my fighter to the table (which is where characterization ACTUALLY takes place).

I like character generation in my RPGs, and at this point there is a minimum amount of character generation required for me to play the game at all.

1) yes
2) no
3) yes, but I have no personal interest in those games
4) character generation during creation and character progression as the game unfolds both matter.

Quote from: Benoist;541528Monte Cook posted an interesting column today on his LJ:

"I hate character generation."

So here are the questions: (1) do you like character generation yourself?, (2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens? (3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games who explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, no choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc? (4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?

Interesting post....

1) I love character generation I generally like it fast and simple but at the same time I love methods that have lifepaths like Burning Wheel, Traveller, Warhammer both Fantasy and 40k. I do agree with him that it's no fun to come in and say I want to be a Fighter or Rogue and be presented with a billion choices that are really no different. I want less choices but each very important. (I assume magic/psi using characters to require more complexity as a given). I also agree that frontloading is boring I prefer a more organic approach.

2)NO. But I like having pregens as a framework to work off like Star Wars.

3)Probably but not my style. I prefer a more backended approach.

4)Keep character generation to 30 minutes maximum (preferably less). I like something like Fantasy Craft for Dnd...pick a species, background, class and done. It does take the 30 minutes because it's a dense system and the books are not well laid out. 5e seems to be going for a similiar but less complex approach.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(1) do you like character generation yourself?

Yes, I absolutely love it and it's one of the best parts of the whole role-playing experience for me.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(2) Would you play/enjoy an RPG that only allowed pregens?

Sure, but not now and forevermore.  Occasionally?  Sure, no problem.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(3) do you agree with Monte Cook there is more room for games who explore the concepts he's talking about there, with loads of pregens, no choices of development not frontloaded at generation, etc?

In a very limited and narrow sense, yes.

Quote from: Benoist;541528(4) some other thoughts to share on the topic of character gen, pregens etc?

The absolutely beauty and elegance of Point-Buy systems *is* the character generation, but, by the same token, it can be overwhelming since these types of games are tremendously front-loaded.

Yes, yes, yes, not really.

It really depends on the game.

for One-shots I almost exclusivekly prefer pregens. If it's an ongoing campaign usually we create characters.

Not really a fan of random-roll and point buy gets annoying if the system is too crunchy or fiddly (rolemaster, Hero, GURPs etc). Usually I use character modeling for my games...the player creates the character in descriptive terms, and then the GM goes in afterwords and assigns stats or defines the character in game terms.

As for Question #3), I have no idea if Monty Crook is correct. I don't think he's written a game yet that I've liked though, so I'm skeptical as to his views as to what makes for a fun RPG.


I should also note there are games where I ONLY like the character creation, as a sort of mini-game in and of itself. This includes The Burning Wheel, Traveller, and MSH (FASERIP)'s alternate chargen rules from The Ultimate Powers Guide. Everway's character creation was rather nice too, it's just unfortunate they never provided a real system to go with it.

I like quick char gen, but I like it.  One of the best things in an rpg for me is being able to visualize the type of character I want, and then play it.  So unless it's a REALLY BASIC game, I want character gen.

I thought this was worth re-posting and discussing.

Cook on Character Creation

Character Creation

It took me a long, long time to sort of own up to it. It's a hard thing to admit, actually. But I hate character creation in rpgs.

I'm not a big fan of origin tales and the beginnings of stories anyway. I like to get right into the action. So I guess it shouldn't have surprised me that I was predisposed to dislike character creation. But there are other, more concrete reasons I don't like it, at least the way it is traditionally handled.

1. I don't like making decisions based on nothing. I don't like deciding that my character is this great diplomat before I even get a chance to see what the adventure or campaign is going to be like. Maybe it would have been better to devote myself to arcane knowledge or trapmaking. I don't know yet. And it's frustrating to have to decide ahead of time. It's like when someone invites you to one of those formal dinners where you have to choose from three entres ahead of time. I don't know what I'm going to want to eat some night four months from now. Similarly, I don't know what kinds of things I'm going to want to be doing three sessions from now. Or ten. Or whatever.

2. I don't like spending a lot of time making a lot of decisions at once. I remember, once, in a 3rd Edition game I was running, I introduced a new player to the game. After a lot of careful consideration, she decided she would play an elf rogue. At that point, I could tell that she felt like she was mostly done. So I could really feel her pain as I watched her face take on a look of horror as another player slid a pile of books, full of choices, at her. To the experienced player, the decision to be an elf rogue simply keyed to a number (dozens, really) of other choices she could now make. But she had thought she was mostly done. (I took her aside later, and advised her to ignore all those optional books and whatnot, and we made the character creation process as painless as possible.)

3. I don't like spending a lot of time on decisions that have little importance. It's kind of crazy, if you think about it, that the decision that my newbie friend had already made--race and class--were the "easy" choices, and then she had to go through and make a bunch of "harder" choices--skills, feats, weapon selection--that ultimately would affect her character a lot less. In other words, the choices that would define her most clearly were the ones that took the least time, and the ones that only barely mattered (should I put 2 points or 3 points into Move Silently) were far more laborious.

That's why any game I create from here on out will, if at all possible, feature the following:

1. Lots of pregenerated characters. When I got started in the rpg field twenty plus years ago, it was common wisdom that "real" gamers wanted to make their own charactesr, and thus hated pregens. Pretty much the only games that offered them were games for brand new players. It's sadly taken me a long time to shake that preconception. But I'm a real gamer, and I love pregens. If you're throwing together a new game this Friday, I'd much rather sit down with a stack of pregens to choose from than pull out my dice and a stack of books to create my own. Pretty much every time. If I don't know the system, this makes things go much faster. And if I do, even better because I then likely know how to make a couple of minor tweaks to the character to make it my own. Does this make me less creative? I don't think so. What it really means is, I get my joy from the game in different ways. It also means that I have created a gazillion characters over the years, and I don't need to have the experience of creating a haughty, scholarly guy (or any other cliche) or a sneaky dwarf (or any other goes-against-the-stereotype guy), or the paladin with a drinking problem (or any other character with "issues"). Those are all great characters, and I'd happily play any of them, but I've created them all already, so I don't need to do it again. Ideally, these characters would be either right in the core rulebook or available as free downloads.

2. Fast character generation options. There's great research out there that discusses how many choices people are comfortable with in a given situation, and the numbers are much smaller than pretty much any "mainstream" game's character gen system. I want to create a game where you can make three or four important decisions and have a cool character ready to go. Ideally, it would be configurable enough so that the people who do want a bazillion options, and want to tinker with every tiny aspect of their character can do so as well. And everyone in between can be happy too. To make this work properly, the affect of the choice should always be commensurate with the time and mental energy required to make it. In other words, if deciding between wookiee and blogon really is going to affect your character forever, there should be a lot to that choice. If the decision between the 4.5 crescent wrench and the 5.5 crescent wrench is not going to matter, then there shouldn't probably be a whole crescent wrench subsystem in the game.

3. Choices that are not entirely front loaded. A lot of people want to be able to shape their whole character to fit their character concept right out of the gate, I get that. But others don't want to have to make decisions way ahead of time. In real life, and even in (good) fiction, people change over time. They develop. I'd like to create a game that embraced that idea. Where not all your character defining choices had to be made before the first adventure even started. (When I was a kid, I had a friend who refused to name his character until he had played for a while, to get a "feel" for him. That's a bit silly and extreme, but the sentiment means a lot to me.) This would mean, potentially, that the game would grow as the characters grew. There might be rules that didn't come into play at the beginning of the game. Imagine (just as an example) a game where political affiliation--monarchist, populist, or anarchist--actually affected your character abilities. Now imagine that the game was set up so that you didn't have to make that choice until you'd played three or four sessions. The issues just wouldn't come up until then. Then, after you've got to know your character, you are presented with those choices, right when they are going to affect the flow of the game. That might be kind of cool, and possibly quite preferable to having to make those choices at the beginning, based on little or no information.

Sure, there are games out there that go down these avenues already. But I think there's room for further exploration.

If I can't make My Guy, then that game is shit and I want it to die screaming in a fire.

Someone might want to merge this with the existing thread.....

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;541547If I can't make My Guy, then that game is shit and I want it to die screaming in a fire.

But HOW long do you give it before this happens? 10 minutes/20 minutes/1 hour/3 days?

Quote from: Marleycat;541549But HOW long do you give it before this happens? 10 minutes/20 minutes/1 hour/3 days?

Anymore, 5-10 minutes.  I have yet to find a game that can't be reduced to "Roll 3d6 in order, no Mulligans; pick race; pick class; roll cash and kit yourself."  The ones that insist that it has to take for-fucking-ever are also the ones where far more ruthless culling of shit options should take place (but did not).

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;541555Anymore, 5-10 minutes.  I have yet to find a game that can't be reduced to "Roll 3d6 in order, no Mulligans; pick race; pick class; roll cash and kit yourself."  The ones that insist that it has to take for-fucking-ever are also the ones where far more ruthless culling of shit options should take place (but did not).

Cool, I give it 30 minutes and that's only because I can be indecisive about things. But I totally understand where you are coming from.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;541555Anymore, 5-10 minutes.  I have yet to find a game that can't be reduced to "Roll 3d6 in order, no Mulligans; pick race; pick class; roll cash and kit yourself."  The ones that insist that it has to take for-fucking-ever are also the ones where far more ruthless culling of shit options should take place (but did not).

As deeply as I got into the chargen aspect of both 3E and 4E, I think they both went too far. I'm an addict, and I'll follow the system as far down as it goes. I once spent an entire week building a 12th level 3.5E Wizard from scratch. I'll take every bit of customization I can get, and there can't be too much for me, but I can realize its not necessarily good for the game as a whole.

I think a Star Wars Saga(core book) or World of Darkness level of character generation to be more or less ideal.