Greetings!
While we often think of "Fast Food Restaurants" being a modern thing--and also a nutritional scourge--and in many ways, they are very modernistic.
However, in ancient Rome, the Romans also had fast food restaurants. These places were not rare or unusual, but common. They may have stayed open well into the night--to accommodate customers wanting a late dinner or snacks. Still, whatever business hours these restaurants had, they specialized in providing quick, simple food for customers. The Roman equivalent of sandwiches, soup, chili, hot dogs. Something simple and quick that could be made and served by just a few people, working with a simple grill, hearth, and so on.
One food item that was popular was a kind of Fish-sauce chili, eaten in a bowl by itself, or as a side utem with other foods. It was made of fermented fish guts, with herbs or spices sometimes added to it. Yeah. Not something we would typically enjoy, but the Romans liked it, and in truth, even before the Romans, the Carthaginians had created a system where they created a similar food item that they mass produced, stored and preserved, and shipped to markets all over the Mediterranean world on regular schedules and routes of delivery. This Fish Stew was hugely popular everywhere, and was a salient and regular diet item for communities everywhere from Iberia and Gaul, to Turkey, the Levant, Egypt, Greece, and Italy. Everyone ate this fish stew.
However, the Romans also served up other food items, like meat sandwiches and that kind of thing. Fast Food restaurants were a very important economic component and food provider in the city of Rome, and in the Roman Empire beyond. Pretty interesting stuff!
So, yes, you can have fast food restaurants in your fantasy cities and towns!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Since a good deal of the gaming I do is in modern urban fantasy/horror, the answer to this is yes. though some extra clarification on that.
In my setting there is a large international mega conglomerate company called Mal-Vex (very inspired by Pentex, weyland-yutani, Roxxon) their shitck more or less is they are the beachhead/mortal facing enterprise of Hell, as in literal biblical hell, the board of executives being made up of literal demoniacs, undead liches, and unseelie fae nobles.
they actively run multiple large fast food chains and are actively attempting to harm the population by making them more suspectible to spiritual possession and corruption. basically imagine if every hamburger you ever ate was ever-so slightly metaphysically tainted, and slowly empowering an egregore spirit by consuming the brand product associated.
I have a lot of the fast-food brands by this company as sort of a slow building hint to the wider setting in the playtest I've been running, my next campaign is going to actively feature Mal-Vex rather than hint at them.
I know this isn't strictly fantasy fast food, but I thought I'd chime in and bump the thread.
Even in my fantasy worlds, the cities often have street vendors selling food that is already cooked (or quickly cooked fresh) - a version of a food truck or hotdog stand. That's pretty much fast food to me and the vibe feels right.
Quote from: SHARK on April 22, 2025, 07:43:04 PMGreetings!
While we often think of "Fast Food Restaurants" being a modern thing--and also a nutritional scourge--and in many ways, they are very modernistic.
However, in ancient Rome, the Romans also had fast food restaurants. These places were not rare or unusual, but common. They may have stayed open well into the night--to accommodate customers wanting a late dinner or snacks. Still, whatever business hours these restaurants had, they specialized in providing quick, simple food for customers. The Roman equivalent of sandwiches, soup, chili, hot dogs. Something simple and quick that could be made and served by just a few people, working with a simple grill, hearth, and so on.
One food item that was popular was a kind of Fish-sauce chili, eaten in a bowl by itself, or as a side utem with other foods. It was made of fermented fish guts, with herbs or spices sometimes added to it. Yeah. Not something we would typically enjoy, but the Romans liked it, and in truth, even before the Romans, the Carthaginians had created a system where they created a similar food item that they mass produced, stored and preserved, and shipped to markets all over the Mediterranean world on regular schedules and routes of delivery. This Fish Stew was hugely popular everywhere, and was a salient and regular diet item for communities everywhere from Iberia and Gaul, to Turkey, the Levant, Egypt, Greece, and Italy. Everyone ate this fish stew.
However, the Romans also served up other food items, like meat sandwiches and that kind of thing. Fast Food restaurants were a very important economic component and food provider in the city of Rome, and in the Roman Empire beyond. Pretty interesting stuff!
So, yes, you can have fast food restaurants in your fantasy cities and towns!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
This began as a parody of fast food chains in the Official Traveller Universe, but it quickly took on a life of its own. Astroburgers has become a regular in my games, it is just too good not to use. Created by Martin J. Dougherty originally.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASTROBURGERS
The Astroburgers chain started out as a joke, albeit a rather expensive one. The founders, living off a legacy and essentially just looking for something to do with their time, created the tackiest advertising campaign they could think of, and an equally downmarket burger chain to go with it. In an equally crass piece of exploitation, they invented themed burgers for practically every possible occasion, event, or cause.
Astroburgers have burgers celebrating not merely the navy, for example, but elements within it. Thus there is a burger commemorating the cruiser service, one for the patrol forces, one for the battleship crews, and so forth. The crews of tankers and logistics vessels are commemorated by one of the largest fast food items in known space – which is itself a piece of unsubtle marketable-concept creation on the part of Astroburgers.
Astroburgers was, unaccountably, a huge success in the marketplace, and now has tens of thousands of outlets. Its management are prone to extravagant and evermore-silly publicity stunts, which are themselves now a trademark. One of the most questionable to date is the commission of an antipiracy patrol at the burger chain's expense. The words 'This space battle was brought to you by Astroburgers' are currently enshrined as the most appallingly crass piece of advertising in history... though there are many who secretly wonder how Astroburgers is going to top that one.
As might be expected from such an immense restaurant chain, Astroburgers also has holdings in the supply industry. Its investment program is surprisingly ethical, pumping hard cash into weak agricultural economies and providing a steady buyer for their produce. The embarrassment of having a giant Astroburgers logo at the gateway to a ranch is perhaps offset for many small-time farmers by being able to keep their land and make a decent living.
Astroburgers
Astroburgers, despite its unbelievably archaic title, is the biggest fast-food franchise in the Marches. The stylized silver "A" against an Imperial starburst symbol is known throughout Imperial space. The secret of Astroburgers' runaway
success is their aggressive expansion policy of opening a franchise in every port and on every world, no matter what the dangers. MA pulled off a tremendous media coup during the 1118 Zyra police action when their new-market team hit the planet surface 11 minutes after the first assault drop and were serving Big Sentient burgers before the perimeter was secured. Vids of Imperial Marines "advancing to the Astroburgers position" – and burger-joint staff exchanging fire with local rebels during the counterattack – trebled sales overnight and launched the AssaultBurger line. Similar dangerous media stunts have led to a series of indictments against Astroburger executives.
Nah, I'm good with good ol'fashioned ration...
I regret my life choices.
IIRC, Eberron had fast food chains run by a halfling Dragonmarked House.
I've featured an airport TGI Fridays, a Roy Rogers and a lot of road-side diners.
The silly dungeon with the killer vending machines (vending machines kill more adventurers than dragons every year), the brass dragon quiz show host, and the kobold who lights up the warning signs, has a break room that's like a modern fast food outlet. The player characters usually break the soda machine while trying to figure it out.
I've had lizard-on-a-stick available from street venders since I saw Conan and Subatai eat them. But I don't really bother with PCs and food so much, its the sort of thing I mention others as doing.
I also have most inns and taverns serve stew in a bread bowl which is portable and fast and could be considered fast food of sorts.
This brings up a thought I've long had from watching the Zatoichi movies. He frequently has a ball of rice to eat as he walks. They don't usually show him buying it so I don't know if its leftovers, if he buys it from a restaurant to go, or from a street vender or what. Does anyone know how that thing worked in medieval Japan?
The PC have not visited the central street/square on market day, but I imagine that fast/fair food is an important part of it.
Funny thing is that there was "fast food" in the medieval period:
My campaign is in the 1980s, so yes.
There'ss even a tie in with McDonalds' "When the U.S. Wins, You Win!" promotion and the McDonald's Menu song record.
Street vendors with cooked food was absolutely a thing in medieval times, and it's a good parallel. I think the biggest misconception is the idea of restaurants as well as shops.
Having a dedicated restaurant building you could walk into and order from a menu - either at a counter or from a waiter - comes well after the medieval era, and even taverns came fairly late in the medieval era. An assembly line of food workers is a modern invention.
If you could walk into a place, it was generally someone's home where they sold food or drink they made. One could absolutely make a living with one's house being an alehouse, but it was the place they lived, and usually not very big. The food could be "fast" mostly because there wasn't any choice - you'd pay and get whatever food they are making.
In our Traveller campaign, we have a vending machine for food in the cargo bay. And one of my alt's goals is to create a fast food empire.
Greetings!
Well, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything. Grills, cooking fires, serving counters, and so on. Also, the people that worked at these restaurants, cooking and serving food and drinks, did not live in these shops. The shops were specifically designed and built to be restaurants. There were no living quarters inside these Roman restaurants at all.
This is also like so many conceits with modern people. Modern society did not invent shopping malls, either. Ancient Rome did. Hadrian's Market was a seven story, gigantic, semi-open-air commercial comlex specifically designed for commerce, food, and shopping. It could easily accommodate thousands of customers all at the same time. Hadrian's Market provided many different kinds of shops, businesses, and services, providing goods from throughout the vast Roman Empire and beyond. So, yes, besides the shopping mall, the Romans also developed fast food restaurants.
Rome also had dedicated "Laundry Mats"--a shop that was dedicated to providing laundry services to people that lived in large apartment complexes. Yes, Rome also had large, multi-story apartment complexes for people to live in.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I remember the Middle Ages had places where you brought in your meat for them to cook. Beyond that, my brain ain't telling me anything.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on April 23, 2025, 02:38:36 PMMy campaign is in the 1980s, so yes.
Cool, mine too. My current PCs are 'Nam vets trying to become mercenaries but they run into a giant conspiracy. The aesthetic I picture is '80s B-movies like American Commandos and Operation 'Nam.
For rules we use a mix of GURPS, Delta Force and Phoenix Command.
Quote from: Cathode Ray on April 23, 2025, 02:38:36 PMThere's even a tie in with McDonalds' "When the U.S. Wins, You Win!" promotion and the McDonald's Menu song record.
Cool, was that an '84 Olympics reference?
I built a 1/72 scale 7-11 for one scenario with miniatures. There's a giant banner on it that says "The Dream Begins with Freedom". I lived in the US in the '80s as a kid and the patriotism was off the charts. It was a good time to be an American I feel.
Kids I knew used to go to school in full camo with their BB guns just in case the Russkies landed.
What's your game about?
The Song Dynasty had restaurants
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 23, 2025, 08:44:02 PMThe Song Dynasty had restaurants
Greetings!
Absolutely right, BedrockBrendan! The Song Dynasty had very diverse, sophisticated, and advanced restaurants, too. From what I have read, they also contributed to a very extensive and colourful nightlife! They also had cookbooks, museums, beauty salons, and so much more. Just really fantastic!
In "The Story of China" series, by Professor Michael Wood, he discusses much of this, ancient Chinese books, recipes, and nightlife. He interviews Chinese chefs that actually cooked him a authentic meal taken right from a Song Dynasty restaurant cookbook, first published in something like 1200 A.D.
It's all so interesting and awesome!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Yes, European cities like London and Paris had "fast food" stalls and sellers who wandered around selling things like meat or fruit pies. They even had cooks' guilds that would sort of cater big events like feasts or weddings.
Quote from: Spooky on April 23, 2025, 07:47:14 PMQuote from: Cathode Ray on April 23, 2025, 02:38:36 PMThere's even a tie in with McDonalds' "When the U.S. Wins, You Win!" promotion and the McDonald's Menu song record.
Cool, was that an '84 Olympics reference?
Kids I knew used to go to school in full camo with their BB guns just in case the Russkies landed.
What's your game about?
Yes, that promotion was used in conjunction with the 1984 Olympics in real life. Without the Russkies, America swept over 80 medals.
"In case the Russkies landed".... sounds like they watched the movie Red Dawn (the good, 1984 version) and wanted to be the Wolverines.
My game is called
Radical High, and it's about teenage life in the real 1980s. It can be played 3 way
1) As high school drama
2) As teens in Cold War scenarios, like Wargames or Cloak & Dagger
3) As kids riding around doing stranger things like encountering monsters and the paranormal
PDFs are at https://pdoxg.gumroad.com and physical editions are on eBay under keywords "Radical High RPG". The phsycial editions themselves are tributes to DIY RPGs and microgames of the era.
Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 09:50:56 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 23, 2025, 08:44:02 PMThe Song Dynasty had restaurants
In "The Story of China" series, by Professor Michael Wood, he discusses much of this, ancient Chinese books, recipes, and nightlife. He interviews Chinese chefs that actually cooked him a authentic meal taken right from a Song Dynasty restaurant cookbook, first published in something like 1200 A.D.
I haven't seen this one, is it worth the watch?
Quote from: Ruprecht on April 23, 2025, 10:05:35 AMI've had lizard-on-a-stick available from street venders since I saw Conan and Subatai eat them. But I don't really bother with PCs and food so much, its the sort of thing I mention others as doing.
I also have most inns and taverns serve stew in a bread bowl which is portable and fast and could be considered fast food of sorts.
With the limitation that you can't walk out of the tavern/inn with their bowl. Though I suppose you could do it if you provide your own bowl.
Edit: sorry, missed the bit about it being a bread bowl.
Now that I think about it, a lot of reenactors wander around with a mug or tankard hanging off their belt. Was it common to carry around your own bowl?
Any idea which came first?
Quote from: I on April 24, 2025, 12:25:45 AMQuote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Yes, European cities like London and Paris had "fast food" stalls and sellers who wandered around selling things like meat or fruit pies. They even had cooks' guilds that would sort of cater big events like feasts or weddings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWxyCBNrYq0
Thanks. This video is interesting - but it is talking exclusively about what it calls "cookshops" rather than "restaurants". I already agreed that there were both mobile and fixed stalls for cooking which sold food. The closer modern parallel is street vendors, I suggested, rather than walk-in fast food restaurants. At 10:41, the video says "instead, most shops were either small lean-to sheds or just a cart".
They briefly mention ale houses - but as I mentioned, those were someone's house that people drank and ate at.
Apparently Roman thermopolia had purpose-built sit-down dining areas which is distinct.
Quote from: jhkim on April 24, 2025, 12:58:35 PMQuote from: I on April 24, 2025, 12:25:45 AMQuote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Yes, European cities like London and Paris had "fast food" stalls and sellers who wandered around selling things like meat or fruit pies. They even had cooks' guilds that would sort of cater big events like feasts or weddings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWxyCBNrYq0
Thanks. This video is interesting - but it is talking exclusively about what it calls "cookshops" rather than "restaurants". I already agreed that there were both mobile and fixed stalls for cooking which sold food. The closer modern parallel is street vendors, I suggested, rather than walk-in fast food restaurants. At 10:41, the video says "instead, most shops were either small lean-to sheds or just a cart".
They briefly mention ale houses - but as I mentioned, those were someone's house that people drank and ate at.
Apparently Roman thermopolia had purpose-built sit-down dining areas which is distinct.
Sorry, I didn't read your post closely enough before responding. My mistake. I've never heard of anything like an actual restaurant in medieval Europe. SFAIK, an inn would have been the closest thing. Local people did apparently go to those for lunch sometimes. There apparently was a lot of just standing around and eating from carts or stalls or doing "take-out" from these things rather than sidewalk cafes or whatever. I'm guessing that's because these businesses were taxed on street frontage, and a lot of space for customers to sit would have resulted in a huge tax bill. I can't think of any other reason they wouldn't have had Roman-style thermopolia.
Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Greetings!
Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.
The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.
Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--
Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.
We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.
Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.
Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.
Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.
Just amazing stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 24, 2025, 07:44:58 AMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 09:50:56 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on April 23, 2025, 08:44:02 PMThe Song Dynasty had restaurants
In "The Story of China" series, by Professor Michael Wood, he discusses much of this, ancient Chinese books, recipes, and nightlife. He interviews Chinese chefs that actually cooked him a authentic meal taken right from a Song Dynasty restaurant cookbook, first published in something like 1200 A.D.
I haven't seen this one, is it worth the watch?
Greetings!
BedrockBrendan!!! Absolutely, YES! A fantastic, delightful series. "The Story of China" and "The Story of India" both are just fantastic! I really appreciate Professor Michael Wood, not just as a scholar, but also as a traveler. He skillfully mixes in sights, visits to locations, interviews with normal people, as well as interviews with other scholars, generals, and politicians. he also talks with chefs, seamstresses, street vendors, brick layers, smaller merchants, and mystics or folklore specialists. Blending all of that with expert quotations and references to historical scholars, archeaologists, eye-witnesses, and fantastic poets, as well!
Professor Michael Wood really puts in the effort to provide you with a broad exposure to the whole culture, in a wonderful way. Unforgettable, and absolutely some of my favorite history resources!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Interesting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL
But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!
Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PMQuote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Greetings!
Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.
The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.
Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--
Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.
We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.
Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.
Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.
Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.
Just amazing stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
What's your source on the welding/underwater welding thing?
Quote from: Spobo on April 24, 2025, 06:43:57 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PMQuote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Greetings!
Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.
The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.
Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--
Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.
We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.
Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.
Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.
Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.
Just amazing stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
What's your source on the welding/underwater welding thing?
Greetings!
Well, after studying ancient history for decades, I cannot remember the precise source. Here are a few documentary resources that should be interesting and entertaining. It is also noteworthy to remember, everything that Carthage accomplished and developed--Rome also was keen to embrace, adapt, and use thoroughly in the forging of the Roman Empire.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 24, 2025, 06:30:13 PMInteresting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL
But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!
Greetings!
*Laughing* Excellent, my friend! Yeah, campaigns need to have food vendors selling fruit pies, and savory, well-spiced meat pies! (Stuffed with mystery meat!)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Nihil novi sub sole...
That said, I think a lot pub fare could legitimately be classified as "fast food", so that fits in here. Also I watched Conan the Barbarian for about the 1000th time the other day and he literally buys what looks like a lizard on a stick from a street vendor to eat...the ultimate take out meal.
Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 10:01:22 PMQuote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 24, 2025, 06:30:13 PMInteresting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL
But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!
Greetings!
*Laughing* Excellent, my friend! Yeah, campaigns need to have food vendors selling fruit pies, and savory, well-spiced meat pies! (Stuffed with mystery meat!)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
As long as it tastes good, never ask.
Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PMQuote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Greetings!
Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.
The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.
Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--
Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.
We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.
Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.
Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.
Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.
Just amazing stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 10:01:22 PMQuote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 24, 2025, 06:30:13 PMInteresting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL
But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!
Greetings!
*Laughing* Excellent, my friend! Yeah, campaigns need to have food vendors selling fruit pies, and savory, well-spiced meat pies! (Stuffed with mystery meat!)
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Also "mystery meat" in stews and soups. It would not be uncommon for an inn or tavern to have a pot of soup or a stew that simmers throughout the day. How it was served really depends. It could be in a bowl, maybe in a mug. I would say even bread bowls wouldn't be out of the question. The tavern owner could purchase day old bread (or older) and use them.
The big thing is it's a cheap meal for the producer and the consumer. Soups and stews can be added to over time with whatever meat and vegetables you had, and it's usually foodstuffs that are going rancid. It would be uncouth but not uncommon for a tavern owner to do such a thing. The soup or stew would hide how spoiled the meat or vegies were.
I can't say for certain if any of this occurred. I only have a BA in History, with an emphasis on medieval Europe. I can confidently say that the potential is there. It wouldn't be a stretch from pasties, pies, the like.
An example of a stew that probably dates back to the medieval period is bigos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigos#History), or hunter's stew. This stew is a mixture of cabbage, saurkraut, meat, and vegetables. I do make this during the colder months of the year. It's one of those stews that gets better as the days go on and the flavors get incorporated more.
I make mine with a bag of already shredded cabbage for cole slaw, a mix of saurkraut and red cabbage kraut, carrots, celery, onions, mushrooms (a MUST imo: mushrooms are flavor sponges) for my vegies.
Now you can add a can of diced tomatoes, but if you want to go medieval authentic, leave the tomatoes out. Tomatoes are a New World food item.
Meats: I use fried bacon with the fat. Yes, put the fat into the crock pot after frying. That's flavor buddy. I'll then add polish sausage/kielbasa, bratwurst, and a couple of ham hocks. If you can't get ham hocks, some diced ham will work in a pinch.
seasoning: MUST have garlic. No question. after that, peppercorns or cracked pepper, paprika, bay leaves, etc. Check the list on the wiki. IMO, you don't need salt. There's enough salt from the meats.
Let this all cook in a slow cooker/crock pot overnight. The aroma in the house is mouth-watering! IT will be ready by lunch. Grab yourself a heaping bowl and chow down. A good crusty bread would be good as a side. Polish or Jewish rye is a favorite for me.
I highly recommend giving it a go. It's easy and relatively cheap to make. I make it every year during the fall and winter months. It's a very hardy stew. In fact, every November my best friend on out pot luck game night always has a huge crock pot of it. It's amamzing.
Quote from: blackstone on Today at 09:00:20 AMQuote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PMQuote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PMQuote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.
OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.
Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.
Greetings!
Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.
The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.
Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--
Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.
We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.
Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.
Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.
Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.
Just amazing stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Greetings!
*Laughing* Absolutely hilarious, my friend! Such an excellent find, too! Monty Python! So awesome!
On a related note, it has always amazed me how brilliant and skilled the Romans were. Nothing really surprises me about Rome on one hand--and then yet, still I get amazed by some new thing, discovery, or angle that they approached some problem or embraced some breakthrough technique or technology. For a long time, I have concluded that modernists are arrogant and often pathetic and very smug and short-sighted about ancient Rome, but the ancient world in general. When you think about what the Carthaginians accomplished, the glorious Persians, the Greeks, the Romans--and then take a look at what the ancient Indians were doing, and the huge empires and dynasties of ancient China, it is mind blowing how vast, talented, skilled, and advanced the ancient civilizations were.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So, have any of you thought of adventuring in dungeons is to collect exotic ingredients for meals, a la Dungeon Meshi?