Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Greetings!

Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.

The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.

Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--

Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.

We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.

Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.

Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.

Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.

Just amazing stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What's your source on the welding/underwater welding thing?

Quote from: Spobo on April 24, 2025, 06:43:57 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Greetings!

Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.

The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.

Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--

Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.

We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.

Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.

Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.

Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.

Just amazing stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What's your source on the welding/underwater welding thing?

Greetings!

Well, after studying ancient history for decades, I cannot remember the precise source. Here are a few documentary resources that should be interesting and entertaining. It is also noteworthy to remember, everything that Carthage accomplished and developed--Rome also was keen to embrace, adapt, and use thoroughly in the forging of the Roman Empire.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 24, 2025, 06:30:13 PMInteresting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL

But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Excellent, my friend! Yeah, campaigns need to have food vendors selling fruit pies, and savory, well-spiced meat pies! (Stuffed with mystery meat!)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Nihil novi sub sole...

That said, I think a lot pub fare could legitimately be classified as "fast food", so that fits in here. Also I watched Conan the Barbarian for about the 1000th time the other day and he literally buys what looks like a lizard on a stick from a street vendor to eat...the ultimate take out meal.

Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 10:01:22 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 24, 2025, 06:30:13 PMInteresting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL

But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Excellent, my friend! Yeah, campaigns need to have food vendors selling fruit pies, and savory, well-spiced meat pies! (Stuffed with mystery meat!)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

As long as it tastes good, never ask.

Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Greetings!

Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.

The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.

Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--

Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.

We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.

Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.

Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.

Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.

Just amazing stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 10:01:22 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on April 24, 2025, 06:30:13 PMInteresting Shark.
I'd definitely have food stalls (with a regions local food). You couldn't play in WFRP without having some pie vendor trying to sell you his latest baked pies (probably made from human flesh). LOL

But absolutely no coffee shops... Any player looking for a Laté can shove it up their ass!

Greetings!

*Laughing* Excellent, my friend! Yeah, campaigns need to have food vendors selling fruit pies, and savory, well-spiced meat pies! (Stuffed with mystery meat!)

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Also "mystery meat" in stews and soups. It would not be uncommon for an inn or tavern to have a pot of soup or a stew that simmers throughout the day. How it was served really depends. It could be in a bowl, maybe in a mug. I would say even bread bowls wouldn't be out of the question. The tavern owner could purchase day old bread (or older) and use them.

The big thing is it's a cheap meal for the producer and the consumer. Soups and stews can be added to over time with whatever meat and vegetables you had, and it's usually foodstuffs that are going rancid. It would be uncouth but not uncommon for a tavern owner to do such a thing. The soup or stew would hide how spoiled the meat or vegies were.

I can't say for certain if any of this occurred. I only have a BA in History, with an emphasis on medieval Europe. I can confidently say that the potential is there. It wouldn't be a stretch from pasties, pies, the like.

An example of a stew that probably dates back to the medieval period is bigos, or hunter's stew. This stew is a mixture of cabbage, saurkraut, meat, and vegetables. I do make this during the colder months of the year. It's one of those stews that gets better as the days go on and the flavors get incorporated more.

I make mine with a bag of already shredded cabbage for cole slaw, a mix of saurkraut and red cabbage kraut, carrots, celery, onions, mushrooms (a MUST imo: mushrooms are flavor sponges) for my vegies.

Now you can add a can of diced tomatoes, but if you want to go medieval authentic, leave the tomatoes out. Tomatoes are a New World food item.

Meats: I use fried bacon with the fat. Yes, put the fat into the crock pot after frying. That's flavor buddy. I'll then add polish sausage/kielbasa, bratwurst, and a couple of ham hocks. If you can't get ham hocks, some diced ham will work in a pinch.

seasoning: MUST have garlic. No question. after that, peppercorns or cracked pepper, paprika, bay leaves, etc. Check the list on the wiki. IMO, you don't need salt. There's enough salt from the meats.

Let this all cook in a slow cooker/crock pot overnight. The aroma in the house is mouth-watering! IT will be ready by lunch. Grab yourself a heaping bowl and chow down. A good crusty bread would be good as a side. Polish or Jewish rye is a favorite for me.

I highly recommend giving it a go. It's easy and relatively cheap to make. I make it every year during the fall and winter months. It's a very hardy stew. In fact, every November my best friend on out pot luck game night always has a huge crock pot of it. It's amamzing.

Quote from: blackstone on Today at 09:00:20 AM

Quote from: SHARK on April 24, 2025, 04:18:51 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 23, 2025, 11:23:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 23, 2025, 04:27:12 PMWell, actual restaurants are not in fact, a modern invention. Ancient Rome had devloped restaurants. As I mentioned earlier, there were actual dedicated small buildings designed and used as fast food restaurants in ancient Rome. Archaeologists have found these throughout Rome. They have the floorplans and everything.

OK, fair point. There were thermopolia in ancient Rome that were fast food, and sorry about disagreeing.

Was there anything like this is medieval Western Europe? My reading is that there wasn't.

Greetings!

Thank you, Jhkim. It's all good though. Well, with restaurants, and so much more of the sophisticated, high culture and dynamic civilization that Rome built, much of it declined and all but disappeared during the Dark Ages. For *CENTURIES*, right? And Jhkim, also remember, there are some scholars that don't know what I know, or other specialists in ancient history. History is vast, and complicated, and it is difficult for any person to organize and know all the details about every region and every era of time. There are lots of blocks of history time that I'm weak in, as well, for example. Just the nature of knowledge and our own limitations.

The Dark Ages and then the Medieval period saw the disappearance of many aspects and standards of the Roman Empire, and eventually, the "rediscovery" of so many things as well in the following centuries. There are even things being discovered about the Roman Empire *now*--that we didn't know about them in previous centuries, despite impressive growth in our scholarship, knowledge, and understanding of the ancient world.

Just a few additional tidbits to amaze and boggle the mind--

Rome had slurpees. Fruit-flavoured snow-cones! Made by hand, on the spot. The Roman Emperors would enjoy these, as well as have them served to guests attending parties and celebrations. The Romans used basic cold-storage in subterranean chambers to mix and preserve ice brought in from the mountains far away. Lots of this would of course melt away during transit, but enough survived, that with each caravan trip, more and more ice was preserved, and able to be kept in storage. The Romans would crush the ice up in mugs, mix it with crushed fruit, and there you go! Fruit flavoured slurpees! Servants would make these up, and have them ready to go at a moment's notice.

We've known forever that Rome developed Concrete. However, now we also know that the Romans pioneered not just one kind of cement--but recipes for seven different kinds of concrete. The Romans used different concrete recipes based upon the kind of building to be designed, the local climate, and so on. Some of these recipes are equal or even superior to any modern concrete.

Hydro-Engineering; Rome was good at developing and working with pipes. That's fairly simple though. Rome did far more than that though. Rome developed techniques of welding, as well as underwater welding! Underwater welding??? Yeah. It's wild! The Romans used different welding techniques based upon the kind of metals being welded, temperatures control, outcome tolerances, all kinds of cool little details. Aqueducts, bringing tens of thousands of gallons of water from water sources hundreds of miles away, up and down mountains, to supply cities with vast populations and supply them with abundant fresh water for everything, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Sewage systems--Rome had extensive sewage system tunnels as a standard urban feature, collecting, and channeling raw sewage into selected marshes and pits for removal of the sewage. Thus, Roman cities provided a much cleaner environment, for more people, most of the time to a much higher standard than other cultures.

Caracalla's Baths: This enormous bathhouse and gymnasium, was a kind of "wonder of the world"--really only somewhat matched in our own modern era. Caracalla's Baths were a vast complex of bathhouses, gymnasiums, restaurants, massage parlours, and brothels, all interconnected and designed to provide service to, something like 15,000 people at a time. At least 5,000 people. I forgot the exact number, but it was enormous. Rome encouraged daily cleanliness, baths, and exercise--for everyone, not just the wealthy elites. The great Caracalla's Baths were open and free for all Roman citizens. All crafted from concrete, marble, gold, ivory, mosaics, fine artwork, gigantic planters with plants in them, secluded areas where bands of musicians provided constant music. Steam rooms, hot rooms, cold rooms, all with fresh, running water. Exercise rooms with weights and gadgets and toys to exercise with, and stay in good shape. Not much different from our own deluxe modern gymns today.

Of course, the Roman baths also had nice slaves that would use scrapers on you, to scrape the dead skin from your body, groom you, and rub you down with warm, scented oils. Yes, when done, you were clean, refreshed, and felt like an entirely new man! *Laughing* These services were also available for women patrons as well. Then, of course, there were brothels in-house that provided other pleasures and services for patrons. After bathing, a thorough work-out, Roman patrons would often gather with friends at a restaurant to enjoy a meal together, and discuss politics and current events.

Just amazing stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Greetings!

*Laughing* Absolutely hilarious, my friend! Such an excellent find, too! Monty Python! So awesome!

On a related note, it has always amazed me how brilliant and skilled the Romans were. Nothing really surprises me about Rome on one hand--and then yet, still I get amazed by some new thing, discovery, or angle that they approached some problem or embraced some breakthrough technique or technology. For a long time, I have concluded that modernists are arrogant and often pathetic and very smug and short-sighted about ancient Rome, but the ancient world in general. When you think about what the Carthaginians accomplished, the glorious Persians, the Greeks, the Romans--and then take a look at what the ancient Indians were doing, and the huge empires and dynasties of ancient China, it is mind blowing how vast, talented, skilled, and advanced the ancient civilizations were.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So, have any of you thought of adventuring in dungeons is to collect exotic ingredients for meals, a la Dungeon Meshi?