Quote from: Wrath of God on December 25, 2021, 07:09:44 AM

With 10 classes you can match 10 sephiras of Tree of Life.
With 22 classes you can match 22 cards of Major Arcana
With 46 classes you can match all Presidents of USA

The George Washington class is OP as snot.

I tried to play as a Calvin Coolidge, but I didn't really do anything the entire game, so, next game I switched to playing as a William Henry Harrison, but almost immediately died.

I like 1E's ten.

What I like about the AD&D's class-based system is that I can read or write something like "C5" and that instantly communicates a large amount of information about the character.

This only works when there are enough classes providing the right variety so I don't have to write a bunch of exceptions into the stat block to differentiate one character from the next. But it also only works if the number of classes are few enough that it's reasonably possible to memorize the features of each class so that I don't need to look up what "C5" entails.

I don't know that 10 is the absolute most perfect number. But whatever the best number is, it's not much higher or lower than that. And I know if I don't have something reasonably close to that, I may as well just play a skill-based game.

If you fold cleric and druid spells into magic user, fold ranger skills into thief, and allow multi classing then you have most everything you need with 3 classes. Fighter, magic user, thief (adventurer).

If each of the four major classes had two to three subcoass options that would be ideal.

I like Classic DnD's 4 classes and it works well for that game.
It does create a distinct genre. A different game genre should have different classes, if any.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 26, 2021, 07:23:09 AM
If each of the four major classes had two to three subcoass options that would be ideal.

If that's your jam, you really need to check out Hyperborea.  The third edition is about to drop as the pdf's have already gone out to the KS backers.  It's got the core four and augments each with several subclasses, some of which, such as the purloiner or the warlock, combine features of two major classes.  And it has some pretty cool specialty spellcasters like Pyromancers, Cryomancers, & Witches, who have their own spell lists.  It's essentially 1e, with a few tweaks, so you can easily play it with most of the other retroclones or the original.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 26, 2021, 09:32:29 AM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 26, 2021, 07:23:09 AM
If each of the four major classes had two to three subcoass options that would be ideal.

If that's your jam, you really need to check out Hyperborea.  The third edition is about to drop as the pdf's have already gone out to the KS backers.  It's got the core four and augments each with several subclasses, some of which, such as the purloiner or the warlock, combine features of two major classes.  And it has some pretty cool specialty spellcasters like Pyromancers, Cryomancers, & Witches, who have their own spell lists.  It's essentially 1e, with a few tweaks, so you can easily play it with most of the other retroclones or the original.

Sounds great!  Thank you.  I will check out Hyperborea 3rd.

As far as the "main four with subclasses go", I think 5 Torches Deep did a wonderful job of that, and they didn't make any one class too powerful. 

Didn't 4e use these as the foundation for roles?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2021, 12:24:32 PM
Didn't 4e use these as the foundation for roles?

Striker - Rogue
Defender - Fighter
Controller - Magic-User
Leader - Cleric

Like that?

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 27, 2021, 12:24:32 PM
Didn't 4e use these as the foundation for roles?

Yes.  But classes and sources didn't necessarily correspond to a single role.  Most classes were 1 main role and then the possiblity to branch out into another.  Each source had the full range of roles so you could easily only include certain sources in a game.

Well with exception of lack of Arcane Defender and Martial Controller (each had two Strikers though - I think Ranger could be reformed to be Martial Controller - aka terrain master, and one that know weak points of every beast, but with Sorcerer and Warlock as Arcane Strikers dunno...).

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:37:55 PM
Well with exception of lack of Arcane Defender and Martial Controller (each had two Strikers though - I think Ranger could be reformed to be Martial Controller - aka terrain master, and one that know weak points of every beast, but with Sorcerer and Warlock as Arcane Strikers dunno...).

  One of the annoying things about 4E was that they did have an Arcane Defender--but you had to buy the FR Player's Guide to get it.

Yeah, but it was not very evocative one really.

I'd go with Runesmith maybe but they decided to make Runes divine because... dunno why.

Compared to few other 4E concepts like - Avenger or Warden... or even renaming Psychic Warrior to Battlemind, this whole Swordmage was bit meh.

I just want to get a game together, pick up a few pizzas and play the game. I don't want to have to wait an hour while someone looks through ten pages about his characters feats or special abilities or whatever.

What was wrong with the basic classes?

Quote from: Redwanderer on January 05, 2022, 03:52:54 PM
I just want to get a game together, pick up a few pizzas and play the game. I don't want to have to wait an hour while someone looks through ten pages about his characters feats or special abilities or whatever.

What was wrong with the basic classes?

Nothing.  The core 4 were awesome.