Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Quote from: Pat on January 03, 2022, 04:15:51 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

It's also why Immunity 5 (Interaction Skills) was commonly used to make autistic super-heroes in Mutants & Materminds.

Quote from: Pat on January 03, 2022, 04:15:51 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Although a red dragon's definition of 'indifferent' might still be VERY uncomfortable.

'Hmmm. There is a toll for traveling on this road, you know. But it's your lucky day, monkeys. Only half the gold -- no silver, and no copper -- you have on you. And no holding out; I can smell a liar a league away.'

(Still, that beats trying to fight a great wyrm red dragon at 5th level.)

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 04, 2022, 12:49:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 03, 2022, 04:15:51 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Although a red dragon's definition of 'indifferent' might still be VERY uncomfortable.

'Hmmm. There is a toll for traveling on this road, you know. But it's your lucky day, monkeys. Only half the gold -- no silver, and no copper -- you have on you. And no holding out; I can smell a liar a league away.'

(Still, that beats trying to fight a great wyrm red dragon at 5th level.)

DC 35 makes the hostile wyrm friendly, which is very achievable with a +25 bonus on a d20 roll.

It's a reaction roll. And I like reaction rolls. But it's hidden as a skill check, which means its treated more as a power available to few than a core mechanic that's central to how encounters work, which is probably why they screwed it up. And they screwed it up by making it far too deterministic. I think the B/X method is far superior. In that edition, only the most extreme rolls (2 or 12 on 2d6) resulted in immediate response, with the rest of the results either neutral or ambivalent (6-8), or I like/dislike you but let's wait and see (3-5, 9-11) and modifiers are never more than +/-2. That provides some guidance to the DM and a real bonus for high Cha types, but still leaves it mostly up to roleplaying.

Quote from: Pat on January 04, 2022, 01:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 04, 2022, 12:49:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 03, 2022, 04:15:51 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Although a red dragon's definition of 'indifferent' might still be VERY uncomfortable.

'Hmmm. There is a toll for traveling on this road, you know. But it's your lucky day, monkeys. Only half the gold -- no silver, and no copper -- you have on you. And no holding out; I can smell a liar a league away.'

(Still, that beats trying to fight a great wyrm red dragon at 5th level.)

DC 35 makes the hostile wyrm friendly, which is very achievable with a +25 bonus on a d20 roll.

It's a reaction roll. And I like reaction rolls. But it's hidden as a skill check, which means its treated more as a power available to few than a core mechanic that's central to how encounters work, which is probably why they screwed it up. And they screwed it up by making it far too deterministic. I think the B/X method is far superior. In that edition, only the most extreme rolls (2 or 12 on 2d6) resulted in immediate response, with the rest of the results either neutral or ambivalent (6-8), or I like/dislike you but let's wait and see (3-5, 9-11) and modifiers are never more than +/-2. That provides some guidance to the DM and a real bonus for high Cha types, but still leaves it mostly up to roleplaying.

And? Friendly is almost as bad. Imagine what kind of friendly advice a chaotic evil great wyrm red dragon might offer.

Remember, sometimes diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a big rock.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 05, 2022, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on January 04, 2022, 01:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 04, 2022, 12:49:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 03, 2022, 04:15:51 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Although a red dragon's definition of 'indifferent' might still be VERY uncomfortable.

'Hmmm. There is a toll for traveling on this road, you know. But it's your lucky day, monkeys. Only half the gold -- no silver, and no copper -- you have on you. And no holding out; I can smell a liar a league away.'

(Still, that beats trying to fight a great wyrm red dragon at 5th level.)

DC 35 makes the hostile wyrm friendly, which is very achievable with a +25 bonus on a d20 roll.

It's a reaction roll. And I like reaction rolls. But it's hidden as a skill check, which means its treated more as a power available to few than a core mechanic that's central to how encounters work, which is probably why they screwed it up. And they screwed it up by making it far too deterministic. I think the B/X method is far superior. In that edition, only the most extreme rolls (2 or 12 on 2d6) resulted in immediate response, with the rest of the results either neutral or ambivalent (6-8), or I like/dislike you but let's wait and see (3-5, 9-11) and modifiers are never more than +/-2. That provides some guidance to the DM and a real bonus for high Cha types, but still leaves it mostly up to roleplaying.

And? Friendly is almost as bad. Imagine what kind of friendly advice a chaotic evil great wyrm red dragon might offer.

Remember, sometimes diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a big rock.

Better than getting eaten.

d20 SRD: "Friendly | Wishes you well | Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate"

Quote from: Pat on January 05, 2022, 01:26:28 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 05, 2022, 11:11:04 AM

Quote from: Pat on January 04, 2022, 01:06:24 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 04, 2022, 12:49:31 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 03, 2022, 04:15:51 PM

Quote from: Wrath of God on January 03, 2022, 02:44:01 PM
Though with diplomancer we should remember that it's not exactly like you could use Diplomacy to achieve anything. It changed attitude of NPCs, and it took time.

Let's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Although a red dragon's definition of 'indifferent' might still be VERY uncomfortable.

'Hmmm. There is a toll for traveling on this road, you know. But it's your lucky day, monkeys. Only half the gold -- no silver, and no copper -- you have on you. And no holding out; I can smell a liar a league away.'

(Still, that beats trying to fight a great wyrm red dragon at 5th level.)

DC 35 makes the hostile wyrm friendly, which is very achievable with a +25 bonus on a d20 roll.

It's a reaction roll. And I like reaction rolls. But it's hidden as a skill check, which means its treated more as a power available to few than a core mechanic that's central to how encounters work, which is probably why they screwed it up. And they screwed it up by making it far too deterministic. I think the B/X method is far superior. In that edition, only the most extreme rolls (2 or 12 on 2d6) resulted in immediate response, with the rest of the results either neutral or ambivalent (6-8), or I like/dislike you but let's wait and see (3-5, 9-11) and modifiers are never more than +/-2. That provides some guidance to the DM and a real bonus for high Cha types, but still leaves it mostly up to roleplaying.

And? Friendly is almost as bad. Imagine what kind of friendly advice a chaotic evil great wyrm red dragon might offer.

Remember, sometimes diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a big rock.

Better than getting eaten.

d20 SRD: "Friendly | Wishes you well | Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate"

That bit from Order of the Stick really kind of applies here: "Your approval fills me with shame."

I am not entirely certain I would want a red dragon's 'limited help' or advocacy. Although I would be wise enough to fake sincerity till I was out of breath weapon range.

QuoteLet's say Aglondir's 5th level diplomancer (who isn't particularly optimized) runs into a hostile great red wyrm, who wants to eat the party. The DC to convert the great wyrm from hostile to indifferent is 25, making it effectively automatic. You're right that the check normally takes 10 minutes, but if you look at the skill again, you'll see a note that it can be performed as a full round action at a -10 penalty. If the diplomancer has 5 friends, and they all succeed at the (trivial) DC 10 checks needed to aid another, that completely wipes out the penalty, allowing a mere 5th level character to turn a CR 26 hostile monster with a Will +30 from hostile to indifferent, because there is no defense and no opposed roll, just a static check. This is completely broken at 5th level, and gets much, much worse at epic levels.

Well true. I forgot about it - because we sort of skipped stupid parts when playing.