Quote from: weirdguy564 on December 17, 2022, 08:32:34 PM
I would rather play Palladium Fantasy 1st Edition over 2nd, so it does matter. 

But, the takeaway is to find a game system you like.  That's why I mentioned Savage Worlds, a game I mildly like, and probably won't play myself.  It sure is popular with a lot of other people.

D&D has too much of a hold on RPG gaming.  It's not even that a good set of rules.  Given that, the OSR games are better than any of the official games.  I'm impressed by Basic Fantasy and Shadow of the Demon Lord, or Star Adventurer if you like Star Wars.  Those three games I'll play.

My favorite game isn't even that close in design anymore, called Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool edition.
https://biggeekemporium.com/product/dungeons-delvers-dice-pool/

I think D&D is fine if you like it, but I don't.  I didn't start with it and when I finally did see it played, it turned me off and actually made me happy I had a "better" game.  I'm not that closed minded these days, but I have no loyalty to that game system.

It undoubtedly helps, that official D&D wasn't your introduction to the hobby.  It helps you stay open-minded toward other games.  Once I fully embraced the idea that neither TSR nor WOTC could leave the rules alone, I felt completely free to just do whatever I wanted to do with it.

Publishers have never had much influence on home-groups played among friends. Where things like edition changes matter is in public settings like conventions, game-stores, VTT games, and to a lesser extent pick-up groups and local game clubs. When people play with strangers they're much more likely to fall back on "official rules" as a neutral arbiter. Not to mention all of the "official" playing settings like Adventurer's League, where WOTC gets to explicitly dictate what rules people play by.

Personally the only one of those that I engage with is VTT gaming, and I do find it pays in that setting not to homebrew too much. There's a sort of unwritten etiquette on Roll20 that you can have a bit of clearly stated homebrew, but people want to know going in which books they're playing from, and be able to stick to that. I don't run or play official D&D, and probably never will though, so WOTC's decision making is still mostly irrelevant to me.

The current edition of D&D most impacts people who aren't playing it through the expectations it creates in new players, but that I think is less the case as time goes on. The average person joining an old-school game these days is probably coming from a Youtube/forum recommendation, and they're likely to be making that change precisely because they want the different play style.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 18, 2022, 10:08:01 AM
Publishers have never had much influence on home-groups played among friends. Where things like edition changes matter is in public settings like conventions, game-stores, VTT games, and to a lesser extent pick-up groups and local game clubs. When people play with strangers they're much more likely to fall back on "official rules" as a neutral arbiter. Not to mention all of the "official" playing settings like Adventurer's League, where WOTC gets to explicitly dictate what rules people play by.

Personally the only one of those that I engage with is VTT gaming, and I do find it pays in that setting not to homebrew too much. There's a sort of unwritten etiquette on Roll20 that you can have a bit of clearly stated homebrew, but people want to know going in which books they're playing from, and be able to stick to that. I don't run or play official D&D, and probably never will though, so WOTC's decision making is still mostly irrelevant to me.

The current edition of D&D most impacts people who aren't playing it through the expectations it creates in new players, but that I think is less the case as time goes on. The average person joining an old-school game these days is probably coming from a Youtube/forum recommendation, and they're likely to be making that change precisely because they want the different play style.

Yeah, if you're not homebrewing rules, you must be new to RPG gaming.

We did it all the time in Palladium system.  We had to.  That system has become a bit wobbly over the years as new, official rules get added that conflict with existing ways to play the game.

Some house rules are just to make it easier to play.  For example, guns in Heroes Unlimited do more damage (less accurately) if you shoot more of a magazine at an enemy.  There are short bursts of 33% of your magazine, x3 damaging long bursts that use up 50% ammo.  But the lack of being a math savant meant I can't mix and match a 33% and a 50% used vs remaining ammo in my head.  So, short bursts were changed to be 25% ammo usage.  Now I can mentally do the math, aka you can have four short bursts, two long bursts, or a single mag dump, plus two or three single shots that just are given as freebies.

I'm responding to OP's question, and I think the answer is that the current ruleset of D&D influences how everyone plays.  Even the unpopular 4ed influenced things as some people who stuck with the brand became more tactical and others moved to Pathfinder, and if you had friends that played games, they probably had experience with one or the other.  With 5ed getting so very many people into the hobby, the only way it won't influence you is if you have a table that is constant for years and years and nothing else.  If you ever get someone to your table, they will have a harder time adjusting the more different you are than the current version of D&D (which they are familiar with).  If you go and join other tables, the most popular game will influence which tables run what, and even influence the number of tables that are running whatever you do want to run.

Very few groups are islands, and this is a group game.  So if D&D goes and makes a shitty game that can't stop farting out politics and has design precepts you don't like, that is going to influence you eventually- even if the only influence is to make you work harder to keep your personal stuff running and coherent amid a world gone mad.

Unless I know the GM and know they are up to it, I basically stopped playing D&D years ago. It's just not worth it.

I rarely GM--I don't really view myself as a talented GM--but when I do GM I run a Campaign Overview sheet to keep up with all the shenanigans because it's rare that I run only one or two homebrew rules. Things included on the Campaign Overview include:

• A loose guidance for the campaign's movie rating and the content which earns that rating.
• Lines, Veils, Banned Content, Ask For Before Including Content, and whatever other safety tools I'm using. (Safety tools are unpopular here because of how disruptive the X-Card can be and they are strongly associated with SJW snowflakes, and X-Cards are frequently a problem. I prefer to think of this as being a good managing editor and giving everyone in the campaign a shared vision for what content should and should not be in the campaign.)
• A list of homebrew rules I am currently using.
• Rules for introducing a rules change or a change to the campaign's direction.
• What happened in the last session. Often I write a synopsis of each session on an index card so players actually have a history of the campaign they can use to jog their memories.

The rules in the book are always a suggestion. RPGs are open source software by design, and open source means that you are within your prerogative to customize the rules at your own risk.

Do the current rules or edition, even matter to how you play D&D?

Not for me, I couldn't care less. The worst thing is when you you confront the players with a monster and they recite all the values of the Monster Manual at you. After a couple of frustrating encounters I stopped using official stats. Monsters were no longer a set of values. Ghosts for instance were as likely to be story events, NPC's, or terrible opponents as anything else.

I had the the players guided by a mysteriously ghostly figure through a dangerous wilderness. They sort of guessed there was a point to this and eventually trusted the spirit, only to find a set of bodily remains. It was quite touching to see their response, taking the time to inter the dead individual with respect even though they had only the slightest clue who he had been.

Oh how they moaned when I junked alignment because I was fed up of 'evil' characters doing as they pleased because they felt liberated by a single stat - yet the background of morality made the adventures work. Players sensed a purpose, a story, and accepted their role as heroes.

We human beings have a long cultural tradition and my advice to refs/GM's is never be afraid of exploiting it. It might be old hat to frame adventures in a stereotypical pseudo-historical way, but players genuinely do relate to such ideas, and even a fantasy world must have a structure to seem real.

But rule-books? They don't tell me how to run a game

Quote from: Venka on December 19, 2022, 04:28:14 PM
Very few groups are islands, and this is a group game.  So if D&D goes and makes a shitty game that can't stop farting out politics and has design precepts you don't like, that is going to influence you eventually- even if the only influence is to make you work harder to keep your personal stuff running and coherent amid a world gone mad.

I agree with almost everything you said, but I want to push back on this point just a little bit. I only have anecdotal evidence for this, but I get the impression that there's more groups out there than usually get talked about where it's people just playing with their regular IRL friends, often people they've been playing with for years or decades, and they don't have much if any contact with the hobby as a wider community.

On top of that, the proliferation of pdfs and online distribution has made it easier than ever to get out of D&D while staying in the hobby. While D&D sells more copies these days than 20 years ago, I would guess that it actually has a smaller percentage of the RPG marketshare. It's still a lot of people's starter RPG, but if those people move on to other games (which a lot of the most devoted ones seem to do), then when they introduce their friends, siblings, children etc., it isn't necessarily going to be through D&D.

Basically what I'm saying is that while D&D probably isn't losing its crown as the most-played RPG any time soon, I'm not convinced that in ten or 15 years it's still going to be "the game that everyone started with".

Hell even today, when you talk about all the people that started with D&D, that's counting a lot of people who started with previous editions. Again this is anecdotal, but the RPG scene seems to have a lot of people who started somewhere between OD&D and 3.5, played 5e a few times, didn't like it, and moved on into games that fit their attitudes better. The OSR muddles that even further, as a lot of people adhere to Professor DM's idea that any game with 3d6 for attributes, AC and class/level counts as "D&D". Going forward some percentage of the people who "started with D&D" are actually going to be people who started with something like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Castles & Crusades.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 20, 2022, 11:27:43 AM

Quote from: Venka on December 19, 2022, 04:28:14 PM
Very few groups are islands, and this is a group game.  So if D&D goes and makes a shitty game that can't stop farting out politics and has design precepts you don't like, that is going to influence you eventually- even if the only influence is to make you work harder to keep your personal stuff running and coherent amid a world gone mad.

I agree with almost everything you said, but I want to push back on this point just a little bit. I only have anecdotal evidence for this, but I get the impression that there's more groups out there than usually get talked about where it's people just playing with their regular IRL friends, often people they've been playing with for years or decades, and they don't have much if any contact with the hobby as a wider community.

On top of that, the proliferation of pdfs and online distribution has made it easier than ever to get out of D&D while staying in the hobby. While D&D sells more copies these days than 20 years ago, I would guess that it actually has a smaller percentage of the RPG marketshare. It's still a lot of people's starter RPG, but if those people move on to other games (which a lot of the most devoted ones seem to do), then when they introduce their friends, siblings, children etc., it isn't necessarily going to be through D&D.

Basically what I'm saying is that while D&D probably isn't losing its crown as the most-played RPG any time soon, I'm not convinced that in ten or 15 years it's still going to be "the game that everyone started with".

Hell even today, when you talk about all the people that started with D&D, that's counting a lot of people who started with previous editions. Again this is anecdotal, but the RPG scene seems to have a lot of people who started somewhere between OD&D and 3.5, played 5e a few times, didn't like it, and moved on into games that fit their attitudes better. The OSR muddles that even further, as a lot of people adhere to Professor DM's idea that any game with 3d6 for attributes, AC and class/level counts as "D&D". Going forward some percentage of the people who "started with D&D" are actually going to be people who started with something like Dungeon Crawl Classics or Castles & Crusades.

Yes.  I have used later versions of D&D, but I've never been dependent on them.  My groups (note the plural), want to play whatever I'm going to run.  Since that isn't WotC stuff anymore, then we don't play that.  Also note that some of the people in those groups have other groups that have nothing to do with me, including some WotC D&D groups.  That's fine. 

From the very beginning, I never had an issue with people importing assumptions from other games, including D&D.  For one, I'm explicit where the changes are, in tone, rules, play procedures, etc.  This is also true in house ruled versions.  I've run 3E, 4E, and 5E, but seldom with the default initiative rules, for example, where I run more like B/X. 

Yep, it's a circle of family and friends, but it grows over time, instead of shrinking.  Despite having to build new groups almost from scratch after various moves.  (There's a core group from the college days that has been playing since '87, but even that changes membership over time.)  Part of it is that I recruit.  Part of it is that I run what I'm going to run, and some gamers enjoy that.  And part of it that I don't try to be all things to all gamers.  Most gamers don't want to do what I do, which is also fine.  That attitude means that the people who do stick with my games for several sessions tend to stick for years.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2022, 08:14:15 PM
There are people who generally play the game as written.

Then there are people who play the game as they wish to, and a new edition or rules errata can't change the way they play.

WOTC is making much more money off of the first group, than they are off of the second group.  WOTC is pitching their wares to the first group, and is trying to attract new players to the first group.  WOTC doesn't care about the second group.  We are lost to them.

Perhaps we should just move on, without them......

I moved on more than 20 years ago when 3E came out.
When I saw there was a 22 page conversion book, I was immediately turned off.
then I found Hackmaster 4E. I was hooked. It was everything AD&D was and more. Arguably, Hackmaster kicked off the OSR back in 2001.
After that, it just grew: OSRIC, Castles & Crusades, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry, etc.
And now we have OSE. Good times.
D&D isn't D&D anymore. It's not. The current version is not what Gygax and Arneson wanted it to be. It's a giant, bloated, animated corpse of a game.
In short: fuck 'em. I don't NEED them.

Quote from: Venka on December 19, 2022, 04:28:14 PM
I'm responding to OP's question, and I think the answer is that the current ruleset of D&D influences how everyone plays.  Even the unpopular 4ed influenced things as some people who stuck with the brand became more tactical and others moved to Pathfinder, and if you had friends that played games, they probably had experience with one or the other.  With 5ed getting so very many people into the hobby, the only way it won't influence you is if you have a table that is constant for years and years and nothing else.  If you ever get someone to your table, they will have a harder time adjusting the more different you are than the current version of D&D (which they are familiar with).  If you go and join other tables, the most popular game will influence which tables run what, and even influence the number of tables that are running whatever you do want to run.

Very few groups are islands, and this is a group game.  So if D&D goes and makes a shitty game that can't stop farting out politics and has design precepts you don't like, that is going to influence you eventually- even if the only influence is to make you work harder to keep your personal stuff running and coherent amid a world gone mad.

Every group is an island. And on that island, the GM is king. Some islands are much better than others. Some islands are deserts. Some islands have Mr. Rourke and his dwarf sidekick granting you your darkest and most awesome fantasies.

OneD&D Island is the Matrix. Some people want the blue pill.

I'm appreciative of this thread, cause I've been thinking similar things that lots of peeps have posted.

Without rancor or animosity, I'm done giving WotC money for a current edition. I do still, on occasion, buy something from DTRPG that I don't want to pay collector prices for.

I have loads of material already, and like others have said, there's loads of great content creators out there that do want my money that produces non-woke stuff.

So I'm good.

QuoteThere are people who generally play the game as written.

Then there are people who play the game as they wish to, and a new edition or rules errata can't change the way they play.

WOTC is making much more money off of the first group, than they are off of the second group.  WOTC is pitching their wares to the first group, and is trying to attract new players to the first group.  WOTC doesn't care about the second group.  We are lost to them.

Perhaps we should just move on, without them......

I deeply doubt that average 5e player play game as written. If anything houseruling seems to be very popular, and 5e fans can be blunt enough to try to push any genre into it.
WOTC is basically advertising game based on still somehow robust combat engine - as unlimited tool for collaborative storytelling. That leads to ignoring plenty of rules in name of STORY.

I mean they will still consoom next project - but def not use it faithfully

Quote from: tenbones on December 20, 2022, 02:04:28 PM
...
OneD&D Island is the Matrix. Some people want the blue pill.

^Truth^

Rhetorical Gold - snagged for future use.

Quote from: caldrail on December 20, 2022, 09:04:50 AM
The worst thing is when you you confront the players with a monster and they recite all the values of the Monster Manual at you. After a couple of frustrating encounters I stopped using official stats. Monsters were no longer a set of values.

I once described a troll as having four arms and 6 eyes and the players freaked and ran because for the fist time they weren't sure what the stats were. Then years later I read Raggi's bit about monsters being unique and it really sank in.

Quote from: Ruprecht on December 30, 2022, 09:00:42 PM

Quote from: caldrail on December 20, 2022, 09:04:50 AM
The worst thing is when you you confront the players with a monster and they recite all the values of the Monster Manual at you. After a couple of frustrating encounters I stopped using official stats. Monsters were no longer a set of values.

I once described a troll as having four arms and 6 eyes and the players freaked and ran because for the fist time they weren't sure what the stats were. Then years later I read Raggi's bit about monsters being unique and it really sank in.

Sounds similar to an NPC wizard quest giver who has a goblin as a sidekick.  The little guy grumbled and mumbled a lot, but was loyal to his wizard friend to his core.  The only thing he liked more was his little wife and three gobby daughters.   And good cooked ham with potatoes.

This was in Palladium Fantasy.  Goblins are a playable race, along with Trolls, Ogres, and Orcs.  Mostly evil, but there is still a bell curve. 

Not everything needs to be a trope.