Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 14, 2022, 11:22:48 PM
I moved on already, at least 18 months ago.  I think in reality it was quite a bit earlier than that, though there was a transition period. 

I'm "interested" in what they do only in the same way that I'm "interested" in a train wreck.  Given that I'm not much of a gawker, that's not all that interested.

This. The last WotC product I bought was Tashia's. I only bought it because I am in a semi-regular 5e game and was using some material in it.

Beyond that, there are only a couple of name companies that routinely get my dollar. The better material is coming from small shops doing it as a side or retirement business.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 16, 2022, 11:07:29 AM
Yes, but for one simple reason: a lot of people, especially new people to the hobby, read "D&D" as "the version I can buy at the store today."

So, if I'm not playing that version as my base I need to be upfront about that and realize if I'm needing or wanting to build a new group that I'm immediately passing on a lot of people.

If I don't need or want a new group, but am just running for my existing group, we either have preferences we just do or we discuss what new to try.

Beyond that, not really.

I guess that's less about playing than setting up to play, so no, it doesn't matter at the table once I have a group.

True; I live in a fairly small town with one game store.  The people I know locally who play RPGs pretty much all play 5e.  I've pretty much played exclusively with family members the past couple years due to this.  But even then, we don't play much.  Since our game store does sell DCC and OSE I might put up an ad early next year and see if I can get a group together to try one of those out, though I've never seen people in the store playing either game.  On the other hand, I know of a game store that was up in Cleveland, Ohio where DCC was their "official" game and they ran games weekly.  So it depends on where you are.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 16, 2022, 11:20:40 AM
Since our game store does sell DCC and OSE I might put up an ad early next year and see if I can get a group together to try one of those out, though I've never seen people in the store playing either game. 

Sell them on the setting and mention that you are happening to use OSE (or DCC) to run the campaign with that setting. Speaking as a guy who lives in rural Northwest Pennslyvania for five decades.

If folks press you on not using 5e, just say that campaign flows better with your system than it does with 5e. I.E. they will get more done in the time spent gaming.

Quote from: estar on December 16, 2022, 01:29:46 PM

Quote from: Persimmon on December 16, 2022, 11:20:40 AM
Since our game store does sell DCC and OSE I might put up an ad early next year and see if I can get a group together to try one of those out, though I've never seen people in the store playing either game. 

Sell them on the setting and mention that you are happening to use OSE (or DCC) to run the campaign with that setting. Speaking as a guy who lives in rural Northwest Pennslyvania for five decades.

If folks press you on not using 5e, just say that campaign flows better with your system than it does with 5e. I.E. they will get more done in the time spent gaming.

And that indeed is a major attraction of OSR games for me.  You can get at least two to three times more gaming in without the bloat of 3e+ D&D.  A few years back my old gaming group would alternate systems/editions and things slowed way down with the 3e/Pathfinder stuff.  One guy's son, who was a teenager, would spend to whole session reading the rulebooks trying to find where he could apply his situational modifiers or use his feats.  He was a non-entity when we played AD&D because he couldn't think creatively off the character sheet.

Quote from: estar on December 16, 2022, 01:29:46 PM
Sell them on the setting and mention that you are happening to use OSE (or DCC) to run the campaign with that setting. Speaking as a guy who lives in rural Northwest Pennslyvania for five decades.

If folks press you on not using 5e, just say that campaign flows better with your system than it does with 5e. I.E. they will get more done in the time spent gaming.

I'm fine with selling what I want to run. I was just acknowledging that playing current D&D (for any era, except maybe the mid-90s when WoD was equally easy) was the easiest path to find people as long as I've been in the hobby, at least in the US (and I suspect Canada). That's an advantage that D&D will probably always have as long as there is official D&D. I suspect it will be true even if, as I wonder, official D&D becomes like Middle Earth and Star Trek, a licensed RPG that moves from company to company every 5-10 years.

And all these years reading BitA, I could have sworn you were in Austin for some reason.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 16, 2022, 01:51:54 PM
And that indeed is a major attraction of OSR games for me.  You can get at least two to three times more gaming in without the bloat of 3e+ D&D.  A few years back my old gaming group would alternate systems/editions and things slowed way down with the 3e/Pathfinder stuff.  One guy's son, who was a teenager, would spend to whole session reading the rulebooks trying to find where he could apply his situational modifiers or use his feats.  He was a non-entity when we played AD&D because he couldn't think creatively off the character sheet.

OSE and many other OSR games do have an advantage there to sell them. If you can get someone their own character (not a pregen) in 10 minutes and expand the rules in another 10 it's a lot easier to get them to "well, I'll try it this one time" than something that takes an hour to make characters.

People talk about D&D only surviving as the 800 lb gorilla because it was first. I think, at least until mid-3rd (when 20 level planned and optimized builds became the norm) and even then dying off with 5e, the ability to get someone at the table competent to play a level one character in under 30 minutes is a huge advantage, especially in bringing new people to the hobby.

Yep, if a character sheet is more than two sides and it takes more than 30 minutes to generate a PC, I generally won't bother with a game anymore.  Last month I picked up Mutant Crawl Classics and you can generate a 0 level character in under 5 minutes.  1st level will take longer but not much. 

With OSE I can do it in under 10 minutes pretty easily.

Quote from: Persimmon on December 16, 2022, 02:08:50 PM
Yep, if a character sheet is more than two sides and it takes more than 30 minutes to generate a PC, I generally won't bother with a game anymore.  Last month I picked up Mutant Crawl Classics and you can generate a 0 level character in under 5 minutes.  1st level will take longer but not much. 

With OSE I can do it in under 10 minutes pretty easily.

I won't say never on something more complex. I'm always up for 80s Rolemaster and would play DragonQuest again. I'd like to try Powers & Perils one day.

And I'm a GURPS fan, although I'm down with templates for it and Hero.

But, the ones I am up for it I've played, sometimes extensively, with the exception of P&P. If a new game looks like it'll take > 30 minutes first time, but be quicker, that's okay. Plus, if character generation is a mini-game (like most versions of Traveller) that makes time used less annoying.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 16, 2022, 02:35:34 PM

I won't say never on something more complex. I'm always up for 80s Rolemaster and would play DragonQuest again. I'd like to try Powers & Perils one day.

And I'm a GURPS fan, although I'm down with templates for it and Hero.

But, the ones I am up for it I've played, sometimes extensively, with the exception of P&P. If a new game looks like it'll take > 30 minutes first time, but be quicker, that's okay. Plus, if character generation is a mini-game (like most versions of Traveller) that makes time used less annoying.

Time spent on the character has to reward the effort somehow.  It can be fun in its own right because of the way it's put together.  It can give you interesting ideas about where you want to take the character. It can be in a game where your character is more likely to live long enough for it to matter.  Or it can be short and get you going quick.  Not everyone will enjoy every path.

My thing is that I don't demand that the game produce characters quickly, but I do demand that things that aren't quick have a payoff within the scope of what that game does.  Which in practical terms means that a lot of games would be better if this aspect was shorter, because so much of the effort in putting together a character has so little payoff.  I don't particularly want to play a game that takes, for example, 10 minutes to put together a character when all the parts that were worth doing should only take 5 minutes. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 16, 2022, 03:13:37 PM
Time spent on the character has to reward the effort somehow.  It can be fun in its own right because of the way it's put together.  It can give you interesting ideas about where you want to take the character. It can be in a game where your character is more likely to live long enough for it to matter.  Or it can be short and get you going quick.  Not everyone will enjoy every path.

My thing is that I don't demand that the game produce characters quickly, but I do demand that things that aren't quick have a payoff within the scope of what that game does.  Which in practical terms means that a lot of games would be better if this aspect was shorter, because so much of the effort in putting together a character has so little payoff.  I don't particularly want to play a game that takes, for example, 10 minutes to put together a character when all the parts that were worth doing should only take 5 minutes.

I can see all that (not much different from my take) with one exception.

Never introduce someone who has not played an RPG before with something with long character creation without evidence that can derive some enjoyment from it. That has less to do with "long creation is always boring" but husbanding their enthusiasm for their entire first time instead of blowing it all calculating three round of character development, for example (RM's time thief).

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 16, 2022, 03:26:36 PM

I can see all that (not much different from my take) with one exception.

Never introduce someone who has not played an RPG before with something with long character creation without evidence that can derive some enjoyment from it. That has less to do with "long creation is always boring" but husbanding their enthusiasm for their entire first time instead of blowing it all calculating three round of character development, for example (RM's time thief).

Absolutely.  If you are going to play a game with long character creation because it's what you are doing, and it runs smoothly enough to introduce someone to RPGs, then make their first character for them. 

I've even had a few casual players that never made characters but played for years.  They loved playing, just weren't into the character creation part.  They'd give me an idea of the kind of character they wanted to try, and then off we'd go with whatever I provided.

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 16, 2022, 11:14:04 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 14, 2022, 11:22:48 PM
I moved on already, at least 18 months ago.  I think in reality it was quite a bit earlier than that, though there was a transition period. 

I'm "interested" in what they do only in the same way that I'm "interested" in a train wreck.  Given that I'm not much of a gawker, that's not all that interested.

This. The last WotC product I bought was Tashia's. I only bought it because I am in a semi-regular 5e game and was using some material in it.

Beyond that, there are only a couple of name companies that routinely get my dollar. The better material is coming from small shops doing it as a side or retirement business.

Tasha's was the book that showed me, I didn't want any more of their rules expansions; because I only liked a little of what was in that book, and it was 100% proof that each expansion contained less and less of interest to me.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 16, 2022, 04:18:35 PM

Quote from: PulpHerb on December 16, 2022, 03:26:36 PM

I can see all that (not much different from my take) with one exception.

Never introduce someone who has not played an RPG before with something with long character creation without evidence that can derive some enjoyment from it. That has less to do with "long creation is always boring" but husbanding their enthusiasm for their entire first time instead of blowing it all calculating three round of character development, for example (RM's time thief).

Absolutely.  If you are going to play a game with long character creation because it's what you are doing, and it runs smoothly enough to introduce someone to RPGs, then make their first character for them. 

I've even had a few casual players that never made characters but played for years.  They loved playing, just weren't into the character creation part.  They'd give me an idea of the kind of character they wanted to try, and then off we'd go with whatever I provided.

I could honestly look through a handful of pregen characters, and find something to roll with; but other people might insist upon their own unique character concept.  I love to flip through the Pathfinder NPC Codex for 1st Edition.  All the Core Rulebook classes are represented, with unique pregens at every level; from 1st to 20th level.  If only every RPG offered such a book.....

No, current rules or editions do not matter to how I play. I'm in my fourth decade of playing, it would take a lot for something to matter at this point.

Along those lines, I think 5e is fairly easy and straightforward. I haven't DM'd 5e for a while now, but it was never difficult to create an easy and streamlined game. I was able to incorporate it into my style without issue.

That said, I because I don't particularly enjoy DM for 5e, I will be running my upcoming Dragonlance game using a different ruleset despite using the recent release as a foundation.

I would rather play Palladium Fantasy 1st Edition over 2nd, so it does matter. 

But, the takeaway is to find a game system you like.  That's why I mentioned Savage Worlds, a game I mildly like, but probably won't play myself.  It sure is popular with a lot of other people.

D&D has too much of a hold on RPG gaming.  It's not even that good as a set of rules.  Given that, the OSR games are better than any of the official games.  I'm impressed by Basic Fantasy and Shadow of the Demon Lord, or Star Adventurer if you like Star Wars.  Those three games I'll play.

My favorite game isn't even that close in design anymore, called Dungeons and Delvers Dice Pool edition.
https://biggeekemporium.com/product/dungeons-delvers-dice-pool/

I think D&D is fine if you like it, but I don't.  I didn't start with it and when I finally did see it played, it turned me off and actually made me happy I had a "better" game.  I'm not that closed minded these days, but I have no loyalty to that game system.