honest thought as iv been reading up on infinity the game
and several threads resently it has been brought up how rps evolved from wars games so what do you guys think?
I think there's already a great deal of crosspollination. Many popular war games like Chain Reaction and Chaos in Cairo are only a hair's breadth from being rpgs.
One thing I think would be interesting is something more like Warhammer's 2000 point game with random scenario elements. Where people could bring pre-balanced characters and engage in an adventure with structured random elements.
I know, 10th level characters and a module with random encounters but running a module requires preparation in the form of reading. I'm talking about randomized elements that form an adventure or perhaps even a random setting.
Quote from: kosmos1214;893967honest thought as iv been reading up on infinity the game
Mechanically, I can say fairly authoritatively that Infinity was directly influenced by the miniature game's mechanics for hacking programs. (Although we ended up a fair distance away by the time we were finished developing the concept.)
So, yes.
As a designer, I think you can draw mechanical inspiration from many different genres of games: War games. Board games. Card games. Video games.
In a word, yes. There are books on organising wargame campaigns that are better GMing guides than most How to GM sections:).
Quote from: David Johansen;893968I know, 10th level characters and a module with random encounters but running a module requires preparation in the form of reading. I'm talking about randomized elements that form an adventure or perhaps even a random setting.
So, a hexcrawl;)?
Yes but one where the GM shuffles a stack of hexes and lays them out on the table as the party explores, and the encounters from civilizations to wildlife are randomly generated. Dungeons and towns can be done with shuffled square tiles. Make that DM WORK for a living.
Starfire Empires kind of does this though it's more detail and book keeping than the love child of a GURPS and Rolemaster GM would want to bother with.
Quote from: David Johansen;893987Yes but one where the GM shuffles a stack of hexes and lays them out on the table as the party explores, and the encounters from civilizations to wildlife are randomly generated. Dungeons and towns can be done with shuffled square tiles. Make that DM WORK for a living.
The old RUNE game from Atlas Games isn't exactly what you're looking for either, but its concept of adventure modules being built around (IIRC) a point budget because the idea was that each player would bring a chunk of scenario to each session which would be run competitively against the other PCs seems like it might be playing around in a similar bailiwick.
Quote from: David Johansen;893987Yes but one where the GM shuffles a stack of hexes and lays them out on the table as the party explores, and the encounters from civilizations to wildlife are randomly generated. Dungeons and towns can be done with shuffled square tiles. Make that DM WORK for a living.
You do realise that designing a good, interesting dungeon or a social setting like a town or city with elements conductive to a good campaign is actually a LOT more work than just drawing or rolling everything at random, right?
RPGs need a refresher course on how not to be wargames.
Quote from: kosmos1214;893967so what do you guys think?
I think that we have too many RPGs for our own good. Hardly any new game is original, interesting and
fresh enough to sacrifice both time to learn it and energy to convince players to play it.
With that in mind, instead of RPGs trying to reinvent the wheel, I'd rather see all those really interesting scraps and bits being used as expansions for already written games and PLAYERS moving their lazy asses, studying various aspects of general RPGaming, embracing new ideas, styles of play, opening to new possibilities and such.
I know it's not exactly the best answer, but that's what I think.
I've had wargames built into my RPGs from the start, since I started with The Fantasy Trip. I feel like big things are missing almost any time an RPG combat doesn't have a map, counters, rules for movement, facing, etc etc etc.
Clearly though, everyone has different tastes, and each game offers different stuff. So yes, but it's not like there's one best path for anyone.
I would say the Melee from The Fantasy Trip is a great way to take a peek, since the rules are very short and easy to learn, and it's all just about setting up melee combats and playing them out. Add Death Test (a programmed adventure that can be played solo) for a little more context.
I've seen some games that look like they might be interesting hybrids. Look for Rattrap Productions and Two Hour Wargames.
Quote from: AsenRG;893984In a word, yes. There are books on organising wargame campaigns that are better GMing guides than most How to GM sections:).
Can you name some names?
Quote from: Premier;894033You do realise that designing a good, interesting dungeon or a social setting like a town or city with elements conductive to a good campaign is actually a LOT more work than just drawing or rolling everything at random, right?
Sure, first time we played Warhammer Quest there were three minotaurs in the first room :D
And I always build my own worlds.
But I'm talking about something like Traveller's UWP generation reduced to an at the table activity. Not as a board game or some such but as an actual exploration as you go.
Death Test actually isn't that great of a dungeon, lots of rooms full of random war bands. The premise is fun but it's not one of these pre-built balanced encounter things.
I'll admit I've always wanted to use something like Star Fire Empires to run a Star Trek style exploration game. Your ship goes through the warp point (you've got to use them or else why not just use long range scans before going anywhere) and you start generating sensor results.
I'm not saying every rpg should be this or that it's the only thing, but there's something in the on the fly, no preparation required nature of it that might be fun.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;894044I think that we have too many RPGs for our own good. Hardly any new game is original, interesting and fresh enough to sacrifice both time to learn it and energy to convince players to play it.
With that in mind, instead of RPGs trying to reinvent the wheel, I'd rather see all those really interesting scraps and bits being used as expansions for already written games and PLAYERS moving their lazy asses, studying various aspects of general RPGaming, embracing new ideas, styles of play, opening to new possibilities and such.
I know it's not exactly the best answer, but that's what I think.
I agree with this. I would rather buy a book which fleshes out a new and interesting world or universe than a set of rules on stats and skills. For example: Don't give me "Avatar - The Role Playing Game", give me "GURPS: Avatar." (Except, you know, not Avatar.)
Unless the new game system is truly revolutionary and reinvents the wheel, shelve it and give me a fun world instead.
Quote from: TristramEvans;894052Can you name some names?
When posting this, I was thinking of Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign, which was brought to my attention in another thread, and which I've purchased since.
Quote from: JesterRaiin;894044I think that we have too many RPGs for our own good. Hardly any new game is original, interesting and fresh enough to sacrifice both time to learn it and energy to convince players to play it.
Well, I just say that I'm running X, and letting the players do the job of persuading themselves they need to learn the rules:p.
Some never will, not before the campaign enters its third year, and for most rulesets that's fine. Others don't need persuasion, and that's fine as well:).
Quote from: Doughdee222;894069I agree with this. I would rather buy a book which fleshes out a new and interesting world or universe than a set of rules on stats and skills. For example: Don't give me "Avatar - The Role Playing Game", give me "GURPS: Avatar." (Except, you know, not Avatar.)
Unless the new game system is truly revolutionary and reinvents the wheel, shelve it and give me a fun world instead.
Sure. I much prefer having systemless supplements, too, because I can then use them with any system I like.
But if it's coming with a system I don't like? Odds are, I'm not going to even touch it;).
Quote from: AsenRG;894074When posting this, I was thinking of Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign, which was brought to my attention in another thread, and which I've purchased since.
If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this, I believe it can be found in this anthology:
http://www.amazon.com/BathS-Ancient-Wargaming-Society-Ancients/dp/0557111803
Quote from: AsenRG;894074When posting this, I was thinking of Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign, which was brought to my attention in another thread, and which I've purchased since.
Can't imagine what flatulent, bad-tempered, beer-swilling old grognard would have brought that to your attention.
:D
Quote from: Justin Alexander;894093If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this, I believe it can be found in this anthology:
http://www.amazon.com/BathS-Ancient-Wargaming-Society-Ancients/dp/0557111803
I found it from a guy in the UK. If anyone wants it, I can probably dig up the contact details:).
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894095Can't imagine what flatulent, bad-tempered, beer-swilling old grognard would have brought that to your attention.
:D
If you can't imagine that, then let it be a mystery;)!
Quote from: kosmos1214;893967honest thought as iv been reading up on infinity the game
Have you been reading Infinity RPG or the war game or both?
Is there crossover there?
Yeah I didn't mention Death Test as a brilliant dungeon, but as one of the fastest ways for a player to try a tactical RPG and add a context for the fights rather than having to generate your own fights with no context.
Easiest & fastest way to give it a try, but of course not the best.
(Melee is also not the best tactical rule set, IMO, though there are still players who are using it and prefer it. My minimum preferred rule set is Advanced Melee with house rules, and I quite prefer GURPS + house rules, but Melee is I think still the best combination of minimum learning curve plus adequate tactical juice. Dark City Games makes current clones and good adventure modules, but I don't think their version of the basic combat rules is juicy enough - I think they cut too much, though they also add some interesting things.)
Quote from: Spinachcat;894133Have you been reading Infinity RPG or the war game or both?
Is there crossover there?
the war game is there an rpg of it that i dont know of ?
Quote from: David Johansen;894053I'll admit I've always wanted to use something like Star Fire Empires to run a Star Trek style exploration game. Your ship goes through the warp point (you've got to use them or else why not just use long range scans before going anywhere) and you start generating sensor results.
Are you familiar with the board game Space Alert (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/38453/space-alert)?
The Victory By Any Means wargame campaign system contains a system generation/exploration mechanic stolen right from Starfire, and up to individual planet level of detail.
I think RPGs have varied enough from wargames that there's relatively little learning that needs to happen.
As stated earlier, Inspiration can come from anywhere. Back around '81 or so, I took Avalon Hill's Kingmaker and recast it as the struggle for the Klingon throne. Used Star Fleet Battles for the space combat, and Traveller with mods for the PCs. Chargen was revised so the players were all Klingon nobles and they played several characters - their "faction" - simultaneously. The role-playing came into play with their interactions and in dealing with the unaligned nobles - NPCs run by me. Worked well enough for a one-shot with minimal time investment.
One area I think RPG games can learn from wargames is rules concision. Most rpg creators don't know how to write concise rules.
Quote from: RunningLaser;895809One area I think RPG games can learn from wargames is rules concision. Most rpg creators don't know how to write concise rules.
I agree. And examples too. I've read lots and lots of rules covering every genre of game and the #1 problem of 90% of them is lack of good examples. "A picture is worth a 1000 words." and all that. Why even modern RPG books don't provide 10 good, reasonable examples of beginning characters is beyond me. And several examples of how combat works, how spells or other powers works, how skill and task resolution works.
Examples, examples, examples! I think what it comes down to is that the game designer/writer knows the system so well he forgets that everyone else
doesn't know the system, he doesn't understand their point of view. Like a wealthy person who has no idea how a poor person lives.
I've noticed that wargamer and wargame designers are far more open to new and interesting mechanics than RPGers.
Familiar with and disappointed with all of them for various reasons. I think the biggest single one is the lack of a grand integrated system. Yes, I'm looking at T5 and crying a little, so close and yet so impossibly far.
ok iv been busy the last few weeks so sorry for the long reply
Quote from: Justin Alexander;893969Mechanically, I can say fairly authoritatively that Infinity was directly influenced by the miniature game's mechanics for hacking programs. (Although we ended up a fair distance away by the time we were finished developing the concept.)
So, yes.
As a designer, I think you can draw mechanical inspiration from many different genres of games: War games. Board games. Card games. Video games.
interesting i hadnt even gotten to the hacking mechanics yet
Quote from: Skarg;894050I've had wargames built into my RPGs from the start, since I started with The Fantasy Trip. I feel like big things are missing almost any time an RPG combat doesn't have a map, counters, rules for movement, facing, etc etc etc.
Clearly though, everyone has different tastes, and each game offers different stuff. So yes, but it's not like there's one best path for anyone.
I would say the Melee from The Fantasy Trip is a great way to take a peek, since the rules are very short and easy to learn, and it's all just about setting up melee combats and playing them out. Add Death Test (a programmed adventure that can be played solo) for a little more context.
ah we have similar tastes then i like my tactical combat
Quote from: hedgehobbit;895845I've noticed that wargamer and wargame designers are far more open to new and interesting mechanics than RPGers.
i think part of the has to do with the fact that in war games mechanical differences are more noticeable and in a way more necessary .
for example if you arnt going to make how say how heavy gear handle armor different from the way battle tech dose what was the reason for making it a different game and not a battle \tech supplement
*NOTE this is a bad example of what im getting at but i wanted to use games i have some personal familiarity with
Quote from: Doughdee222;895838I agree. And examples too. I've read lots and lots of rules covering every genre of game and the #1 problem of 90% of them is lack of good examples. "A picture is worth a 1000 words." and all that. Why even modern RPG books don't provide 10 good, reasonable examples of beginning characters is beyond me. And several examples of how combat works, how spells or other powers works, how skill and task resolution works. Examples, examples, examples! I think what it comes down to is that the game designer/writer knows the system so well he forgets that everyone else doesn't know the system, he doesn't understand their point of view. Like a wealthy person who has no idea how a poor person lives.
ill go with this big time
Quote from: JesterRaiin;894044I think that we have too many RPGs for our own good. Hardly any new game is original, interesting and fresh enough to sacrifice both time to learn it and energy to convince players to play it.
With that in mind, instead of RPGs trying to reinvent the wheel, I'd rather see all those really interesting scraps and bits being used as expansions for already written games and PLAYERS moving their lazy asses, studying various aspects of general RPGaming, embracing new ideas, styles of play, opening to new possibilities and such.
I know it's not exactly the best answer, but that's what I think.
I'm inclined to agree: tooooooo many systems. What we need are cool campaigns and adventures, not a new way to cast BlastTheCrap II.
Quote from: Doom;896931I'm inclined to agree: tooooooo many systems.
I think it would be more accurate to say we have too many iterations of the same handful of basic ideas.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;895845I've noticed that wargamer and wargame designers are far more open to new and interesting mechanics than RPGers.
Depends on your outlook. I'd suggest that they were far more prone to inventing new and bizarre mechanics because nothing new or bizarre had been bolted on to the system in a while.