Quote from: AsenRG;894074When posting this, I was thinking of Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign, which was brought to my attention in another thread, and which I've purchased since.

If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this, I believe it can be found in this anthology:

http://www.amazon.com/BathS-Ancient-Wargaming-Society-Ancients/dp/0557111803

Quote from: AsenRG;894074When posting this, I was thinking of Tony Bath's Setting up a Wargames Campaign, which was brought to my attention in another thread, and which I've purchased since.

Can't imagine what flatulent, bad-tempered, beer-swilling old grognard would have brought that to your attention.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;894093If anyone is interested in getting a copy of this, I believe it can be found in this anthology:

http://www.amazon.com/BathS-Ancient-Wargaming-Society-Ancients/dp/0557111803

I found it from a guy in the UK. If anyone wants it, I can probably dig up the contact details:).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894095Can't imagine what flatulent, bad-tempered, beer-swilling old grognard would have brought that to your attention.

If you can't imagine that, then let it be a mystery;)!

Quote from: kosmos1214;893967honest thought as iv been reading up on infinity the game

Have you been reading Infinity RPG or the war game or both?

Is there crossover there?

Yeah I didn't mention Death Test as a brilliant dungeon, but as one of the fastest ways for a player to try a tactical RPG and add a context for the fights rather than having to generate your own fights with no context.

Easiest & fastest way to give it a try, but of course not the best.

(Melee is also not the best tactical rule set, IMO, though there are still players who are using it and prefer it. My minimum preferred rule set is Advanced Melee with house rules, and I quite prefer GURPS + house rules, but Melee is I think still the best combination of minimum learning curve plus adequate tactical juice. Dark City Games makes current clones and good adventure modules, but I don't think their version of the basic combat rules is juicy enough - I think they cut too much, though they also add some interesting things.)

Quote from: Spinachcat;894133Have you been reading Infinity RPG or the war game or both?

Is there crossover there?

the war game is there an rpg of it that i dont know of ?

Quote from: David Johansen;894053I'll admit I've always wanted to use something like Star Fire Empires to run a Star Trek style exploration game.  Your ship goes through the warp point (you've got to use them or else why not just use long range scans before going anywhere) and you start generating sensor results.

Are you familiar with the board game Space Alert?

The Victory By Any Means wargame campaign system contains a system generation/exploration mechanic stolen right from Starfire, and up to individual planet level of detail.

I think RPGs have varied enough from wargames that there's relatively little learning that needs to happen.

As stated earlier, Inspiration can come from anywhere.  Back around '81 or so, I took Avalon Hill's Kingmaker and recast it as the struggle for the Klingon throne.  Used Star Fleet Battles for  the space combat, and Traveller with mods for the PCs.  Chargen was revised so the players were all Klingon nobles and they played several characters - their "faction" - simultaneously. The role-playing came into play with their interactions and in dealing with the unaligned nobles - NPCs run by me.  Worked well enough for a one-shot with minimal time investment.

One area I think RPG games can learn from wargames is rules concision.  Most rpg creators don't know how to write concise rules.

Quote from: RunningLaser;895809One area I think RPG games can learn from wargames is rules concision.  Most rpg creators don't know how to write concise rules.

I agree. And examples too. I've read lots and lots of rules covering every genre of game and the #1 problem of 90% of them is lack of good examples. "A picture is worth a 1000 words." and all that. Why even modern RPG books don't provide 10 good, reasonable examples of beginning characters is beyond me. And several examples of how combat works, how spells or other powers works, how skill and task resolution works. Examples, examples, examples! I think what it comes down to is that the game designer/writer knows the system so well he forgets that everyone else doesn't know the system, he doesn't understand their point of view. Like a wealthy person who has no idea how a poor person lives.

I've noticed that wargamer and wargame designers are far more open to new and interesting mechanics than RPGers.

Familiar with and disappointed with all of them for various reasons.  I think the biggest single one is the lack of a grand integrated system.  Yes, I'm looking at T5 and crying a little, so close and yet so impossibly far.

ok iv been busy the last few weeks so sorry for the long reply

Quote from: Justin Alexander;893969Mechanically, I can say fairly authoritatively that Infinity was directly influenced by the miniature game's mechanics for hacking programs. (Although we ended up a fair distance away by the time we were finished developing the concept.)

So, yes.

As a designer, I think you can draw mechanical inspiration from many different genres of games: War games. Board games. Card games. Video games.

interesting i hadnt even gotten to the hacking mechanics yet

Quote from: Skarg;894050I've had wargames built into my RPGs from the start, since I started with The Fantasy Trip. I feel like big things are missing almost any time an RPG combat doesn't have a map, counters, rules for movement, facing, etc etc etc.

Clearly though, everyone has different tastes, and each game offers different stuff. So yes, but it's not like there's one best path for anyone.

I would say the Melee from The Fantasy Trip is a great way to take a peek, since the rules are very short and easy to learn, and it's all just about setting up melee combats and playing them out. Add Death Test (a programmed adventure that can be played solo) for a little more context.

ah we have similar tastes then i like my tactical combat

Quote from: hedgehobbit;895845I've noticed that wargamer and wargame designers are far more open to new and interesting mechanics than RPGers.

i think part of the has to do with the fact that in war games mechanical differences are more noticeable and in a way more necessary .
for example if you arnt going to make how say how heavy gear handle armor different from the way battle tech dose  what was the reason for making it a different game and not a battle \tech supplement
*NOTE  this is a bad example of what im getting at but i wanted to use games i have some personal familiarity with    

Quote from: Doughdee222;895838I agree. And examples too. I've read lots and lots of rules covering every genre of game and the #1 problem of 90% of them is lack of good examples. "A picture is worth a 1000 words." and all that. Why even modern RPG books don't provide 10 good, reasonable examples of beginning characters is beyond me. And several examples of how combat works, how spells or other powers works, how skill and task resolution works. Examples, examples, examples! I think what it comes down to is that the game designer/writer knows the system so well he forgets that everyone else doesn't know the system, he doesn't understand their point of view. Like a wealthy person who has no idea how a poor person lives.

ill go with this big time

Quote from: JesterRaiin;894044I think that we have too many RPGs for our own good. Hardly any new game is original, interesting and fresh enough to sacrifice both time to learn it and energy to convince players to play it.

With that in mind, instead of RPGs trying to reinvent the wheel, I'd rather see all those really interesting scraps and bits being used as expansions for already written games and PLAYERS moving their lazy asses, studying various aspects of general RPGaming, embracing new ideas, styles of play, opening to new possibilities and such.

I know it's not exactly the best answer, but that's what I think.

I'm inclined to agree: tooooooo  many systems. What we need are cool campaigns and adventures, not a new way to cast BlastTheCrap II.