Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 02:58:03 PM
  Something I have noticed about a whole bunch of people who fancy themselves in business or self employed...it seems to take some of them a loooong time to realize there is a massive difference in gross and profit, and that at the end of the day, profit is the only number that really matters.

That's exactly why so many small businesses crash quickly unless they got money to burn. And then it just delays the crash.

Some creative or technically proficient people think business is easy because that's all they choose to see.

Quote from: Lynn on December 04, 2021, 02:54:02 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 02:58:03 PM
  Something I have noticed about a whole bunch of people who fancy themselves in business or self employed...it seems to take some of them a loooong time to realize there is a massive difference in gross and profit, and that at the end of the day, profit is the only number that really matters.

That's exactly why so many small businesses crash quickly unless they got money to burn. And then it just delays the crash.

Some creative or technically proficient people think business is easy because that's all they choose to see.

Having the right niche helps. My day job is also being self-employed. I do custom laser engraving and the key for me has been keeping low overhead and NOT expanding into stupid side lines; have clients pay YOU to cut their side-line projects instead.

My game is a labor of love. If I can just not lose money on printing and shipping and keeping the website running I long ago gave up on ever recouping my writing or art time beyond fractional pennies per copy.

Quote from: dkabq on December 04, 2021, 01:57:50 PM
I have pledged almost 200 RPG Kickstarters. And so far I have yet to get burned. I attribute my good luck to mainly pledging small projects (average pledge = ~$21, median pledge = ~$10) and only pledging large projects from creators that are known to be reliable (e.g., Steve Jackson Games, Goodman Games, Greg Gillespie, Kevin Crawford/Sine Nomine Publishing). While I have had projects run months late, so far everyone has eventually provided the as-promised product.

YMMV.

That's certainly good advice for people considering pledging. Also, be wary of any KS that has a ton of stretch goals promising crazy extras.

Quote from: dkabq on December 04, 2021, 01:57:50 PM
I have pledged almost 200 RPG Kickstarters. And so far I have yet to get burned. I attribute my good luck to mainly pledging small projects (average pledge = ~$21, median pledge = ~$10) and only pledging large projects from creators that are known to be reliable (e.g., Steve Jackson Games, Goodman Games, Greg Gillespie, Kevin Crawford/Sine Nomine Publishing). While I have had projects run months late, so far everyone has eventually provided the as-promised product.

YMMV.

I want to say I've pledged on the order of 10-20 kickstarters. The only one I really got burned on was a dwarf based RPG, where the creator went out and spent the money on drugs and booze. He did get the tattoo he promised in the extra's though. Otherwise, yeah, Exalted 3E was 2-3 years late, and some OPP projects take a while (don't judge me)... Currently backed and waiting on are:

1. an Ars Magica supplement in spanish. I don't speak spanish, but I really want to support Ars Magica as the line is currently in hibernation.
2. Avatar the Last Airbender RPG
3. Exalted: Essence
4. Story Engine: Deck of Worlds (essentially a random generator for worlds but with cards that you can move around and such. Pricey, but my kids liked the first Story engine product so much that I bought it.)

In actual fact, what has annoyed me the most are the comics that I have backed. They pitch something super cool, you wait like a year and a half to 2 years and get... 30 to 60 pages. I'm a fast reader and am frankly, done in 15-20 minutes. For $20 or so. Yeah, not doing that again.

As for the designers not making money... Two of my mutals friends are no longer friends with each other anymore. If you look in my posting history I brought up a game here several years ago that they kickstarted. Things were going well until the company they contracted in China to make their game took their money and a week later declared bankruptcy.

So, not wanting to lie/disappoint their customers, forked over the same amount of $$ again. Boy was I glad that I had backed out of the game development. Turns out with board games, the real work is doing the art. Yeah, seriously. We  play tested it like crazy put tons of hours into that, and the art was easily triple that amount of time. My skill with art is atrocious, and I didn't have time to learn how to help with that.

Anyways, there were some disagreements and whatnot, and now they don't really speak to each other anymore, which IMO, is just a damn shame.

I miss the time when Kickstarter was about random people with crazy ideas, not big companies or established writers using an alternate store front.

Quote from: Pat on December 06, 2021, 07:01:15 AM
I miss the time when Kickstarter was about random people with crazy ideas, not big companies or established writers using an alternate store front.

In terms of OSR material, there are still plenty of random people with crazy ideas. I have found that following creators that you like will lead you to more creators of that ilk.

Quote from: dkabq on December 06, 2021, 07:09:05 AM

Quote from: Pat on December 06, 2021, 07:01:15 AM
I miss the time when Kickstarter was about random people with crazy ideas, not big companies or established writers using an alternate store front.

In terms of OSR material, there are still plenty of random people with crazy ideas. I have found that following creators that you like will lead you to more creators of that ilk.

I'm talking about the commercialization of KS, not the OSR in general. KS used to be about individuals with passion and no experience, now it's just another eBay or Amazon for preorders.

Our company is currently preparing for a kickstarter and thankfully we realized that our initial numbers would not work out with all of the fees and taxes and overhead. A little deeper research really helped to show us what the best way forward was.

One of the main things I think most companies underestimate are the taxes you have to pay year after year. If you raise 200k for your project but you plan on spending it over the next 3 years, you have to pay income taxes 3 times, each time on whatever amount you have left, so by year 3 you have a fraction of what you had budgeted for, and most people seem to not realize that they don't just get taxed on the sum once upfront, in an LLC specifically any money held after expenses is treated as profit and income for the controlling members, whether you take it out of the company or not.

Kickstarter takes 5% off the top, plus another 3-5% processing fee, so if you need, at minimum, 200k to make the game in 3 years, you probably need to raise at least 275k-300k in order to pad that out, and that might still end up being a thin margin.

As I've been doing this research it struck me that the industry, and small businesses in general that need to do crowdfunding, could use more informational resources about these issues.

The very first Kickstarter I backed never shipped me a product. So, I've never backed another one. Create a product, ship it, and if it's good, I'll buy it if it meets my needs. I don't collect for the sake of collecting.  I already feel bad enough about the number of dice I own, and the pile of ancient RPG books I'll never use again.

As a game designer myself, I don't really need to buy games, but one does come along now and then that I think has some good ideas I might want to adapt to my game, so I buy those. If they are good, I hype them to other people, too.

Quote from: avaia on December 16, 2021, 05:59:29 AM
I already feel bad enough about the number of dice I own, and the pile of ancient RPG books I'll never use again.

I can quit any time I want!!

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 16, 2021, 02:39:24 PM

Quote from: avaia on December 16, 2021, 05:59:29 AM
I already feel bad enough about the number of dice I own, and the pile of ancient RPG books I'll never use again.

I can quit any time I want!!

I actually have my eye on some new dice again. I want a set of faux jade dice. I'm feeling the need to represent my Asian heritage in my dice. But after that, I swear, that's it, no more dice. I'm really happy with the dice I already have, the D&D Laeral Silverhand and Icewind Dale sets, plus a couple of numerically balanced d20s and d30s from The Dice Lab.

I have participated in about 40 kickstarters, I have a few that have not delivered yet including Cha'alt III, Hyperborea III, Dying World DCC Box, and the Girl Genius Powered by GURPS hardback. Most of the things I contributed to were board games and a few video games and some 3d Printing STL collections. I backed the Battletech Clan Invasions thing, and a modular elevated gaming mini-table thing.

So far other than the four outstanding ones, I have had EVERY thing I backed on Indiegogo and Kickstarter and a couple on Backerkit as slacker-backer ship me what was promised. I had one hardcover book game called Gang Fight delayed by two years but it eventually shipped.

The ONLY one that is probably dead is the 2nd edition of Relic knights which...all they shipped was a PDF of the rules and cards. No minis or anything substantial. Ninja Division everyonce in a while says they are still working on fulfillment but...nah that ain't happening. Not now.

Anyway I played in front of that train a whole lot and only got hit once.