There's some KS that fail. Some that succeed, and sometimes big. But there's also some that appear to be a big success but actually make the creators lose big.

Keep the money for yourself. Or spend the money on artists, writers, book printers, shipping boxes, shipping fees, Kickstarter fees, taxes, and hope there is still money left for you to keep. Kickstarter is for democrats. Real creators that want to keep more of their profits and not be gate kept go to Indiegogo instead.

Most importantly though. Make damn sure you have a YouTube channel with a customer base established first before doing your crowdfund campaign. Have at least 100K subscribers.

@RPG Pundit, while these guys (the detractors you mention in the video) could claim that they made more money from kickstarters than you ever did, you can claim that they lost a fortune compared to you on any kickstarters they ran.

How many are genuinely trying to make their game, versus how many are grifting? That's the question that needs addressing.

I no longer back kickstarters ever since I got hosed on a couple.  If you put out an actual product, I will buy it.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 02, 2021, 12:01:46 PM
I no longer back kickstarters ever since I got hosed on a couple.  If you put out an actual product, I will buy it.

Lets say I put a crowdfunding for a game (assuming you're interested in the type of game) on indiegogo, the game is finished it only needs the art, if you back it above lets say $10 US you get a fully indexed pdf without the art right away, and if the campaign reaches it's goal you also get the finished pdf WITH art, or that plus whatever option you bought in. For example the finished PDF plus the softcover/hardcover/whatever.

Would you back that campaign?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 12:19:06 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 02, 2021, 12:01:46 PM
I no longer back kickstarters ever since I got hosed on a couple.  If you put out an actual product, I will buy it.

Lets say I put a crowdfunding for a game (assuming you're interested in the type of game) on indiegogo, the game is finished it only needs the art, if you back it above lets say $10 US you get a fully indexed pdf without the art right away, and if the campaign reaches it's goal you also get the finished pdf WITH art, or that plus whatever option you bought in. For example the finished PDF plus the softcover/hardcover/whatever.

Would you back that campaign?

I certainly would.

  Something I have noticed about a whole bunch of people who fancy themselves in business or self employed...it seems to take some of them a loooong time to realize there is a massive difference in gross and profit, and that at the end of the day, profit is the only number that really matters.

  I have never kickstarted an RPG either, I honestly lack confidence in most of the projects that have RPG tags, due to what others mention here, who is serious, who is grifting and who *thinks* they are serious.  I have kickstarted a few campaigns by Reaper, and one for a board game (massive darkness).  they all took a loooong time to get, well beyond target date, but I was at least confident the folks in the projects were competent at completion, if not punctuality.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 12:19:06 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 02, 2021, 12:01:46 PM
I no longer back kickstarters ever since I got hosed on a couple.  If you put out an actual product, I will buy it.

Lets say I put a crowdfunding for a game (assuming you're interested in the type of game) on indiegogo, the game is finished it only needs the art, if you back it above lets say $10 US you get a fully indexed pdf without the art right away, and if the campaign reaches it's goal you also get the finished pdf WITH art, or that plus whatever option you bought in. For example the finished PDF plus the softcover/hardcover/whatever.

Would you back that campaign?

No. But I would buy your book (and .pdf) once you released it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 12:19:06 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 02, 2021, 12:01:46 PM
I no longer back kickstarters ever since I got hosed on a couple.  If you put out an actual product, I will buy it.

Lets say I put a crowdfunding for a game (assuming you're interested in the type of game) on indiegogo, the game is finished it only needs the art, if you back it above lets say $10 US you get a fully indexed pdf without the art right away, and if the campaign reaches it's goal you also get the finished pdf WITH art, or that plus whatever option you bought in. For example the finished PDF plus the softcover/hardcover/whatever.

Would you back that campaign?

Kickstarter and RPGs have put a really bad taste in a whole bunch of people's mouths.  I honestly like the idea you have...so the buyer would at least get something no matter what.   The thing is, I have no idea how much of a beak wetting kickstarter takes, and honestly the platform alone, with some decisions they have made, is a no go for me.  I would consider trying to do a massive pre sale campaign from your own web site.  But who knows, kickstarter might still be a good way to get fully funded.   I just have a feeling they are taking a pretty good cut of the pie.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 03:00:48 PM
  I have never kickstarted an RPG either, I honestly lack confidence in most of the projects that have RPG tags, due to what others mention here, who is serious, who is grifting and who *thinks* they are serious.  I have kickstarted a few campaigns by Reaper, and one for a board game (massive darkness).  they all took a loooong time to get, well beyond target date, but I was at least confident the folks in the projects were competent at completion, if not punctuality.

I think that a lot of people vastly underestimate the amount of work, and level of discipline necessary to turn out a finished commercial product at a level that people would be willing to buy.

For instance: I run my groups Sunday Star Wars game with a homebrew rules set. But all I need to make that happen is a 15 page rules reference word document, a couple of xcel spreadsheets for my character sheets, and rules references for the players.

To try and turn that into a generic Sci-Fi RPG that people would be willing to pay money for? Pfffttt...  I have a day job! The amount of time it would take for me to turn it into something that I would feel good about trying to sell for actual money is just not worth it. Hundreds of hours of work, never mind the upfront costs... forget it.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 02:58:03 PM
  Something I have noticed about a whole bunch of people who fancy themselves in business or self employed...it seems to take some of them a loooong time to realize there is a massive difference in gross and profit, and that at the end of the day, profit is the only number that really matters.

This is generally because they do not properly evaluate their upfront costs, or the potential downstream issues and risks.

IMHO: a general rule of thumb is to add up all of the upfront expenses, add on an extra 50%, and then multiply that number by 3.

That will get you in the general ballpark of not losing your shirt.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 04:02:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on December 02, 2021, 12:19:06 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on December 02, 2021, 12:01:46 PM
I no longer back kickstarters ever since I got hosed on a couple.  If you put out an actual product, I will buy it.

Lets say I put a crowdfunding for a game (assuming you're interested in the type of game) on indiegogo, the game is finished it only needs the art, if you back it above lets say $10 US you get a fully indexed pdf without the art right away, and if the campaign reaches it's goal you also get the finished pdf WITH art, or that plus whatever option you bought in. For example the finished PDF plus the softcover/hardcover/whatever.

Would you back that campaign?

Kickstarter and RPGs have put a really bad taste in a whole bunch of people's mouths.  I honestly like the idea you have...so the buyer would at least get something no matter what.   The thing is, I have no idea how much of a beak wetting kickstarter takes, and honestly the platform alone, with some decisions they have made, is a no go for me.  I would consider trying to do a massive pre sale campaign from your own web site.  But who knows, kickstarter might still be a good way to get fully funded.   I just have a feeling they are taking a pretty good cut of the pie.

Kickstarter would most likelly not allow my campaign, so it would have to be Indiegogo IF they haven't gone woke by the time I'm ready.

Kickstarter takes a bigger cut than Indiegogo, the issue with making a massive pre sale campaign is the reach, and the semi guarantee of refunds Indiegogo provides. Something you don't have if I do it in my site (if I had one).

Yes, the backer would get to keep the no art fully indexed pdf no matter what. I'm doing the editing and formating myself.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 02, 2021, 04:02:52 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 03:00:48 PM
  I have never kickstarted an RPG either, I honestly lack confidence in most of the projects that have RPG tags, due to what others mention here, who is serious, who is grifting and who *thinks* they are serious.  I have kickstarted a few campaigns by Reaper, and one for a board game (massive darkness).  they all took a loooong time to get, well beyond target date, but I was at least confident the folks in the projects were competent at completion, if not punctuality.

I think that a lot of people vastly underestimate the amount of work, and level of discipline necessary to turn out a finished commercial product at a level that people would be willing to buy.

For instance: I run my groups Sunday Star Wars game with a homebrew rules set. But all I need to make that happen is a 15 page rules reference word document, a couple of xcel spreadsheets for my character sheets, and rules references for the players.

To try and turn that into a generic Sci-Fi RPG that people would be willing to pay money for? Pfffttt...  I have a day job! The amount of time it would take for me to turn it into something that I would feel good about trying to sell for actual money is just not worth it. Hundreds of hours of work, never mind the upfront costs... forget it.

Quote from: oggsmash on December 02, 2021, 02:58:03 PM
  Something I have noticed about a whole bunch of people who fancy themselves in business or self employed...it seems to take some of them a loooong time to realize there is a massive difference in gross and profit, and that at the end of the day, profit is the only number that really matters.

This is generally because they do not properly evaluate their upfront costs, or the potential downstream issues and risks.

IMHO: a general rule of thumb is to add up all of the upfront expenses, add on an extra 50%, and then multiply that number by 3.

That will get you in the general ballpark of not losing your shirt.

I think you're too optimistic 8 hours/day 6days/week 48 hours per week times 52 = 2496 hours in a year. IF you manage to write it that fast, not counting proof reading, editing, formating...

I'm sure we're talking thousands of hours per RPG, unless you plan on doing a "complete game" in two pages.

I have pledged almost 200 RPG Kickstarters. And so far I have yet to get burned. I attribute my good luck to mainly pledging small projects (average pledge = ~$21, median pledge = ~$10) and only pledging large projects from creators that are known to be reliable (e.g., Steve Jackson Games, Goodman Games, Greg Gillespie, Kevin Crawford/Sine Nomine Publishing). While I have had projects run months late, so far everyone has eventually provided the as-promised product.

YMMV.