Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2023, 09:50:22 AM
Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

Luckily you were born at a time, and adopted political and moral frameworks, that are perfect, and absolutely won't be shat on by future generations. You are truly blessed that your personal ideology, and objective goodness, are identical.

I'll try to struggle through the disappointment that you wouldn't play at my table.

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 22, 2023, 09:54:41 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2023, 09:50:22 AM
Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

Luckily you were born at a time, and adopted political and moral frameworks, that are perfect, and absolutely won't be shat on by future generations. You are truly blessed that your personal ideology, and objective goodness, are identical.

I'll try to struggle through the disappointment that you wouldn't play at my table.

Yes, exactly. I'm lucky to have grown up when I did. Those future generations can get fucked. I'm celibate because I don't want to touch or conceive nutjobs indoctrinated by our increasingly deranged society to think asphyxiation is loving intimacy.

Sorry I won't play at your table, but I hope you have fun without me anyway. It won't be as fun without me, of course, but I'm sure you'll manage just fine.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2023, 09:50:22 AM
Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

  So are contemporary people. Do you do solo gaming only?

  On topic, things that will push me away from a game are:

• The game itself or the publisher overtly denigrating me (usually as a member of the group--no one's lashed out at me personally yet ) or proclaiming they don't want my business.
• The game foregrounding elements which disrupt my enjoyment or that I don't want to deal with.
• The community or culture around the game likewise giving me the impression that I'm not welcome.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 22, 2023, 03:34:38 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2023, 09:50:22 AM
Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

  So are contemporary people. Do you do solo gaming only?

Yeah, contemporary people are hell too and only get worse as time goes. I'm not interested in what the industry is selling, even if it is sanitized. I'm bored of fantasy and all the non-fantasy has shit rules design and its own head up its ass with shit lore masturbation. The new political slant makes it worse.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2023, 09:50:22 AM
Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

... and yet I've absolutely had players be genocidal assholes in very long-term campaigns, those same PC's became ingrained into the very history of my settings. Infamy can have its own value for a TTRPG setting.

Most people are startling unaware of themselves and their beliefs. They mistake the power of their internal emotional convictions over the power of the supposed principles they operate under. Most times there *are no principles* at all. This is precisely why people fight over alignment. *MOST* people do not understand the nuances of Ethics or Morality and confuse the two and fight over Batman being evil/good/neutral/chaotic/lawful when it suits their purposes losing sight that these are axiomatic considerations and people are far more complex.

The same is true of politics. Talk to any average European about firearms while being a Texan and see how different two otherwise perfectly friendly people see the world. Talk to someone that lives in Papua New Guinea about your concerns of Global Big Pharma, there's a good bet they don't give a shit.

When it comes to gaming - the GM's job is to set the stage for the setting. The players job is to create a PC that they intend on engaging with that setting as presented by the GM. If a TTRPG creator has an ulterior motive, that is politically driven... *GOOD LUCK*. I can't think of any very popular or successful game with obvious political motives that is worth a damn. Because nuance is where the fun conflict occurs. And ideologues tend to look at their political views as articles of religious faith, free of any scrutiny.

This is precisely why Woke activists can't do super-hero comics. It's not to say Woke-ideology hasn't always existed in comics - it certainly has, in one form or another. But what Woke people don't realize is those champions of their ideology are almost always villains. Magneto is the *perfect* example. A minority of a minority, who is fighting against an actual genocidal pogrom designed to wipe his people out... or so he believes. And he's willing to do anything, including the exact same things he believes his detractors would do, to prevent/prosecute it. This is what makes him a great villain - he's honest about it. Woke assholes aren't honest. They possess zero self-awareness because it's emotion, not principle.

As for voting with my dollar? Why *wouldn't* you? I derive no virtue about telling anyone reading this about my purchases. I purchase things I consider GOOD for ME. I might comment on people buying things I consider dogshit, yet they continue to complain about it non-stop, because it's WEIRD to me watching people flagellate themselves over the next WotC Outrage... when who *gives a fuck* at this point? The ship has long sailed. Go play something GOOD. Put your money there and be HAPPY.

It's not virtuous to point out the obvious. But you know emotions>reason is the current zeitgeist for many people new to grappling with this stuff.

My gaming culture consists of: 1) People who play at my table 2) People that enjoy talking about the hobby we share 3) People that will buy my products and hopefully work their way up to #2 and maybe #1. Politics? I have no problem with politics at my table. You can be a raging leftist, but as long as you're prepared to give and receive in equal amounts outside of my game, we're cool. In game? STFU and play. If you can't do that? I'll happily escort you to the door. No problems here.

Quote from: tenbones on July 25, 2023, 10:40:13 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 22, 2023, 09:50:22 AM
Historical people were genocidal assholes. I'm totally fine with not playing them ever.

... and yet I've absolutely had players be genocidal assholes in very long-term campaigns, those same PC's became ingrained into the very history of my settings. Infamy can have its own value for a TTRPG setting.

glances at evil campaigns

Yeah, I guess you're right.

I guess I've had to many bad experiences with creeps in the hobby. The types who post on public pbp forums detailed scenes of his PC engaging in cannibal snuff torture-porn. Some fandoms, I'm not gonna name names but you can probably guess which ones, attract those types like flies to carrion. It's made me very leery of any kind of games which touch on any non-family-friendly topics. I can never be sure beforehand if someone is auditioning to be a horror writer or is indulging a fetish. The religious cultist attitudes in many fandoms amplifies the problem, as it trains otherwise sane people (I assume) to accept and defend disgusting stuff because it's tradition.

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 21, 2023, 11:59:58 PM

I loathe the Hollywood trope that heroes in historical settings have to agree with modern progressive values, even if they're living in a hut in 8th century Wales. They never want the local Lord to just be slightly less of a bastard, so that they can keep enough grain to eat. Nah, they're bursting with zeal to have an American style revolution. "FREEDOM!" shouts the peasant who is literally incapable of understanding the concept of not living under Feudalism.

Most modern Hollywood historical productions do this shit. The shitty games are simply emulating this. Erasing history is a communist tactic. Funny thing is, modern progressive ideology is ANTI freedom. It is slavery to groupthink. Fall in line with the program or be canceled

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 25, 2023, 03:42:53 PM
Most modern Hollywood historical productions do this shit. The shitty games are simply emulating this. Erasing history is a communist tactic.

I think even right-liberal Hollywood mangles history like this, making the heroes Whigs basically. Braveheart or 300 do it. I read an American historical novel The Crusader and it was exactly the same.

I thought Gladiator was quite good for having a Roman-esque feel to the protagonist, much more than the earlier film they ripped off, Decline And Fall of the Roman Empire, which had a typical Hollywood protagonist. But Gladiator was by Ridley Scott who's English, and is a rare exception IMO.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 19, 2023, 04:13:15 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on July 19, 2023, 02:33:21 PM
There was a time not too long ago where I would have dismissed such a notion as patently ridiculous. Now I'm not so sure, as it really seems RPGs arbitrated by a single individual attract more conservatives while RPGs where results are determined through group discussion attract more liberals. Then there's the RPGs which are specifically political to begin with, and the players concerned about their game choices endorsing or reflecting their values in some way. And while I appreciate how this forum is one of the few places such a discussion can even take place, it's still one where politics and playstyle are all but synonymous.

So am I seeing things here? Does anyone have any evidence for/against? What are the positives/negatives if true?

It wasn't this way in the past.  I've gamed with people of all political stripes for most of my life.  It's only in the last 10 years (and primarily post-Trump) that this hasn't been true.  And it's mainly because the left has become total narcissists and Marxists.  No exaggeration.  All of us (right or left) gamed in pretty much the same way.  Then the left went narcissistic and suddenly they couldn't play at a table that didn't "see" them, meaning that each of them had to be the center of attention all of the time.  And with an old school style referee, they can't guarantee that.  So story games and meta mechanics were invented to that every special snowflake pansexual genderfluid otherkin can make sure the spotlight gets shined on them all the time.  And the Marxism, well when you all believe in Critical Theory and that all relationships boil down to victims vs oppressors, no woke warrior worth their soy is going to allow some Dungeon Master (See!  Legacy of slavery...) victimize them (or remove the spotlight from them).  I never saw a political divide in RPGs until the left started screaming that "The personal is political!" and injecting woke nonsense into everything.  So, yeah, I see it, and it's totally the left's fault.  And we all know how good the left is at taking personal responsibility for their actions...

Well, I for one completely disagree that it is "totally" the Left's fault, though I agree there is far more blame there than they want to admit. I think it is patently ridiculous to say almost anything is totally one side's fault or another—any relationship whether between individuals or groups is the result of their dynamic and not entirely the responsibility of one or the other. You lack empathy and awareness, pal.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 25, 2023, 10:58:24 AM
glances at evil campaigns

Yeah, I guess you're right.

I guess I've had to many bad experiences with creeps in the hobby. The types who post on public pbp forums detailed scenes of his PC engaging in cannibal snuff torture-porn. Some fandoms, I'm not gonna name names but you can probably guess which ones, attract those types like flies to carrion. It's made me very leery of any kind of games which touch on any non-family-friendly topics. I can never be sure beforehand if someone is auditioning to be a horror writer or is indulging a fetish. The religious cultist attitudes in many fandoms amplifies the problem, as it trains otherwise sane people (I assume) to accept and defend disgusting stuff because it's tradition.

Yeah, the main point I think we're all really faced with is this: We've *always* had creepy fucked up players in the hobby. From the very beginning this was true. But now they are legion. So we need to really be vigilant about who we admit to our tables, and equally importantly, about how we as GM's conduct our games authentically to the setting.

This is how the cultural Marxists have weasled their way in - the degradation of the D&D settings into being the current freakshow without any editorial discipline at WotC was an invitation to this bullshit. Of course... it doesn't help that WotC themselves are fucking creepy weirdos themselves... so again, it's time for all of us to re-edify our positions which always begins and ends at our table. No one dictates to us what we run or how we run as GM's. The hobby begins and ends with us.

As for "evil campaigns" - I honestly rarely run something overtly evil. The closest I've come with any regularity is when I run Underdark campaigns (Drow specifically), which I enjoy quite a bit because "evil campaigns" like any other campaign require structure. There has to be a counter-balance to the notion that "evil" PC's running around doing dastardly shit, happens without any repercussions. Typical murderhobos, even in my "evil campaigns" do not last long in my games. At least not without leashing from the other PC's (Someone has to be that murderous thug the PC's unleash on their foes after all - but even then, he has to come to heel at some point.)

My campaigns are almost always political - even my "D&D adventure" games get political because the PC's have to interact with civilization *at some point* - and civilizations are always political, be it tribal, feudal, monarchial etc, and my NPC's always have their own agendas - for good or ill. That's all part of the game.

Quote from: S'mon on July 26, 2023, 02:49:14 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 25, 2023, 03:42:53 PM
Most modern Hollywood historical productions do this shit. The shitty games are simply emulating this. Erasing history is a communist tactic.

I think even right-liberal Hollywood mangles history like this, making the heroes Whigs basically. Braveheart or 300 do it. I read an American historical novel The Crusader and it was exactly the same.

I thought Gladiator was quite good for having a Roman-esque feel to the protagonist, much more than the earlier film they ripped off, Decline And Fall of the Roman Empire, which had a typical Hollywood protagonist. But Gladiator was by Ridley Scott who's English, and is a rare exception IMO.

Sure - but were you not entertained? heh.

I think the issue is our populace is 1) generally ignorant to the point of being retarded when it comes to history in general 2) when the point of making a movie is to be entertained vs. teaching history, it becomes the slow slide into all kinds of silly beliefs because of #1. Not that this is wrong - because if #1 weren't an issue, people could go on inoculated by the motives of political assholes that fall into #2.

That's the real issue - "entertainment" now are effectively propaganda. Which tends to make for very bad entertainment.

Quote from: tenbones on July 26, 2023, 11:10:13 AM

Quote from: S'mon on July 26, 2023, 02:49:14 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on July 25, 2023, 03:42:53 PM
Most modern Hollywood historical productions do this shit. The shitty games are simply emulating this. Erasing history is a communist tactic.

I think even right-liberal Hollywood mangles history like this, making the heroes Whigs basically. Braveheart or 300 do it. I read an American historical novel The Crusader and it was exactly the same.

I thought Gladiator was quite good for having a Roman-esque feel to the protagonist, much more than the earlier film they ripped off, Decline And Fall of the Roman Empire, which had a typical Hollywood protagonist. But Gladiator was by Ridley Scott who's English, and is a rare exception IMO.

Sure - but were you not entertained? heh.

I think the issue is our populace is 1) generally ignorant to the point of being retarded when it comes to history in general 2) when the point of making a movie is to be entertained vs. teaching history, it becomes the slow slide into all kinds of silly beliefs because of #1. Not that this is wrong - because if #1 weren't an issue, people could go on inoculated by the motives of political assholes that fall into #2.

That's the real issue - "entertainment" now are effectively propaganda. Which tends to make for very bad entertainment.

Ehen, 300 isn't trying to be a historical film, it's a comic book film.

I think the big problem is that a lot of Americans, even at the highest levels of power, think that American style liberty and political systems are some natural human state, only requiring the correct conditions (one of the few ways that American jingoism resembles Communism.) Post WW2, America has fucked up quite a few nations by trying to push square pegs through round holes.

China is the most dangerous and egregious example of this. "If we trade with them, they'll become Capitalists! Wait, China, why are you using your money that way? NNNOOOO!"

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 26, 2023, 12:35:55 PM
I think the big problem is that a lot of Americans, even at the highest levels of power, think that American style liberty and political systems are some natural human state, only requiring the correct conditions (one of the few ways that American jingoism resembles Communism.) Post WW2, America has fucked up quite a few nations by trying to push square pegs through round holes.

China is the most dangerous and egregious example of this. "If we trade with them, they'll become Capitalists! Wait, China, why are you using your money that way? NNNOOOO!"

If by American style liberty - you mean, that we generally follow the Bill of Rights and the Government is limited to local agreed upon rules achieved through representative democracy, and the Federal powers are supposed to be extremely limited to just a half-dozen functions? Then that's about as close as you're going to get at any scale.

And NO - Americans do not have this style of Liberty.

More importantly - how many people play this way in their fantasy-elf game settings? Probably very few. There is a reason why "American Liberty" evolved this way for a very reason. So much so, it's a hard stretch to rationale this in a fantasy setting without getting woo-woo. But it would be fun to try.

And for Galactus's sake, please don't mention Paizo Golarion's Avestan's bullshit attempt at shoe-horning a "Democratic State" into their setting. That place would implode in 48-hrs left to run as it's designed.