Quote from: Fheredin on July 20, 2023, 08:04:12 AMOf course, the reverse is also true. I would finger quite a few posters here as throwing the baby out with the bath water by completely ignoring safety tool discussions at all, because if you abstract it it's just about not letting the content of the campaign meander into unproductive dead ends, and that includes the "unsafe" ends.

Or, and hear me out here, I don't bother playing with snowflakes and baby-brains. If I'm running Call Of Cthulhu, and a player wants to X-card blood, or spiders or whatever, in a GAME, they can feel free to go and find a nice Monopoly table.

Quote from: Fheredin on July 20, 2023, 08:04:12 AM
The X-Card is simultaneously a fantastic tool and an abysmal one at the same time .

No, it's just crap used by those who never grew up.  This is FANTASY/FICTION.  Not real life.  Any player wanting this in my game isn't an adult yet and shouldn't be at the table.  They can determine content when they run a game.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 19, 2023, 02:54:32 PM
I've been "self-boycotting" people who hate me for decades.  I won't bother everyone with the list, but as a couple of examples, I'll never buy another Gillette product again (despite using them for most of my life) and I'll never go to Disney World again (even if grand children want to go and I'm the only one that can take them).  So not buying particular games is really not a huge sacrifice to me.
   

I'm fascinated by the "don't give money to people who hate you" stance, since it often feels more like an exaggerated and distorted form of virtue signaling (is "reverse virtue signaling" a thing?) than an honest protest.

Do you honestly think companies hate you, or have they just done or said things that you disagree with? To use your own examples, why do you believe that Gillette and/or Disney "hate" you? It seems far more likely that you've found a reason to hate them and want to convince the world that they hate you so can shout about it and take the supposed high road by boycotting them.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 20, 2023, 11:00:47 AM
I'm fascinated by the "don't give money to people who hate you" stance, since it often feels more like an exaggerated and distorted form of virtue signaling (is "reverse virtue signaling" a thing?) than an honest protest.

Do you honestly think companies hate you, or have they just done or said things that you disagree with? To use your own examples, why do you believe that Gillette and/or Disney "hate" you? It seems far more likely that you've found a reason to hate them and want to convince the world that they hate you so can shout about it and take the supposed high road by boycotting them.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

"Yes, it's totally virtue signaling not to spend your money on horseshit you don't need because you find the commercials and promoted values abhorrent, but perfectly fine to actively dox people and put them out of a job because they said something that hurt your feelings."

That's what you meant right?

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 20, 2023, 11:00:47 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 19, 2023, 02:54:32 PM
I've been "self-boycotting" people who hate me for decades.  I won't bother everyone with the list, but as a couple of examples, I'll never buy another Gillette product again (despite using them for most of my life) and I'll never go to Disney World again (even if grand children want to go and I'm the only one that can take them).  So not buying particular games is really not a huge sacrifice to me.
   

I'm fascinated by the "don't give money to people who hate you" stance, since it often feels more like an exaggerated and distorted form of virtue signaling (is "reverse virtue signaling" a thing?) than an honest protest.

Do you honestly think companies hate you, or have they just done or said things that you disagree with? To use your own examples, why do you believe that Gillette and/or Disney "hate" you? It seems far more likely that you've found a reason to hate them and want to convince the world that they hate you so can shout about it and take the supposed high road by boycotting them.

What Brad said.  Plus:

First, "Don't give money to people who hate you" is the short version so that we don't need to explain the concepts every single time.  Of course there is more nuance than that.  I don't actually think that "Gillette hates me".  Gillette is a company run by people that decided it was a good idea to run a multi-million dollar ad campaign implying that their current customer base was awful.  In other words, they were virtue signaling that they hated me.  So I take them at their word and don't buy their product anymore.  I didn't start this.  Chances are, in any specific case, the moron in charge of the marketing campaign doesn't actually hate me (personally or impersonally) but just wants to woke virtue signal.  However, that makes them a "useless idiot" mouthing the words of a few people who would be quite happy to see me dead.  I know you don't see it that way, but then there's a lot of stuff you don't see.

Second, I don't go out of my way to "shout" my boycotts like this.  I'm not on social media at all.  I don't bring this up in every conversation.  I didn't list all the boycotts.  I call them "self" boycotts because I'm not organizing a way to takeover Gillette and Disney and get everyone there fired that doesn't toe my line.  Nor am I advocating specifically that other people boycott those two companies.  You'll note that I didn't even list my reasons.  What I do advocate is that people form a list of entities that don't have their best interests in mind, and stop giving those entities money.  Or, "Don't give money to people who hate you".  If you think Disney doesn't hate you, that's fine.  My list is personal.  Any list you might or might not make is yours.

But given your other posts thus far on this forum, I doubt your question was asked in good faith.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 20, 2023, 11:42:44 AM
Second, I don't go out of my way to "shout" my boycotts like this.

That's just it, isn't it? People who actively vote with their wallets will, at most, tell their buddies something like, "Fuck that tranny Bud Light crap," and that's the end of it. Maybe make fun of anyone who brings it to a party, but it's localized to their family/friend group, they aren't going out of their way, accosting people in the store, or stopping traffic on the freeway with giant signs. The whole Budweiser boycott was essentially a few people bringing the ad campaign to light and lots and lots of people individually deciding to not purchase the beer. That's it. No one tried to get anyone fired, no one was firebombing buildings, no protests, not one person was beat up.

The more I think about it, the more it's obvious to me that the reason leftist/Marxists get so mad about this sort of stuff is that, despite their near 100% control over most forms of media, they cannot deal with anyone not doing what they want, much less a bunch of rednecks, rubes, and hicks who decided not to engage. To bring this back to RPGs, it's the same as people here saying we're not gonna give Wokeman Games any more money because DCC has decided to murder the English language, which results in shrieks and pure retardation from leftist shills. They cannot handle anyone deciding to do anything for themselves, especially spending their money how they wish. God forbid someone exercise free will.

We saw that attitude first with feminism. Heaven forbid a woman choose to do something other than become a CEO. If she did that, she was brainwashed by the Patriarchy. Once someone makes choices the left disagrees with, freedom goes out the window.

As for the original topic, RPGs didn't used to reflect political ideology because we were able to maintain a level of suspension of disbelief. Over time, factions pushed and pushed until everything became political. Some factions may have been more responsible than others, but now here we are. I can't pretend it ain't what it is, anymore. So now, when I see "they" used to describe everybody, and I see the word "goddess" has been removed from the lexicon and obviously female deities are being described with the male-form of the word, I know that gender ideology crap is being pushed on me. It isn't something that's being done to "appeal to the wider audience" or to prevent a scandal. Because there's a scandal either way. There is no neutral middle ground, because there isn't allowed to be. Everything is political.

I wish it weren't, but it is.

Quote from: Brad on July 20, 2023, 11:12:45 AM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 20, 2023, 11:00:47 AM
I'm fascinated by the "don't give money to people who hate you" stance, since it often feels more like an exaggerated and distorted form of virtue signaling (is "reverse virtue signaling" a thing?) than an honest protest.

Do you honestly think companies hate you, or have they just done or said things that you disagree with? To use your own examples, why do you believe that Gillette and/or Disney "hate" you? It seems far more likely that you've found a reason to hate them and want to convince the world that they hate you so can shout about it and take the supposed high road by boycotting them.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

"Yes, it's totally virtue signaling not to spend your money on horseshit you don't need because you find the commercials and promoted values abhorrent, but perfectly fine to actively dox people and put them out of a job because they said something that hurt your feelings."

That's what you meant right?

Let me take that in two parts:

Quote
"Yes, it's totally virtue signaling not to spend your money on horseshit you don't need because you find the commercials and promoted values abhorrent,

Choosing to not spend your money on products made by companies you don't like or find objectionable isn't virtue signaling. I have no issue with how people choose to spend their money. I don't eat at Chik-fil-A because I find their support of anti-LGBTQ and hate groups objectionable. For another example, as curious as I've been about the quality of Pundit's game products, I can't bring myself to pay for one because I don't want to support someone who goes out of their way to promote anger and division within the game community.

The virtue signaling comes in when a boycott like that is wrapped in the whole "don't give money to people who hate you" thing. It's portraying your decision as the result of you being a victim of a company that hates you.

Quote
but perfectly fine to actively dox people and put them out of a job because they said something that hurt your feelings."

I have no idea what you're referring to here.


Take Care,

Lou

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 20, 2023, 02:07:20 PM

Choosing to not spend your money on products made by companies you don't like or find objectionable isn't virtue signaling. I have no issue with how people choose to spend their money. I don't eat at Chik-fil-A because I find their support of anti-LGBTQ and hate groups objectionable.

Take Care,

Lou

Wow, It's been a LONG time since I was transported into a drug created alternate universe via a forum post. 

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 20, 2023, 11:00:47 AM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 19, 2023, 02:54:32 PM
I've been "self-boycotting" people who hate me for decades.  I won't bother everyone with the list, but as a couple of examples, I'll never buy another Gillette product again (despite using them for most of my life) and I'll never go to Disney World again (even if grand children want to go and I'm the only one that can take them).  So not buying particular games is really not a huge sacrifice to me.
   

I'm fascinated by the "don't give money to people who hate you" stance, since it often feels more like an exaggerated and distorted form of virtue signaling (is "reverse virtue signaling" a thing?) than an honest protest.

Do you honestly think companies hate you, or have they just done or said things that you disagree with? To use your own examples, why do you believe that Gillette and/or Disney "hate" you? It seems far more likely that you've found a reason to hate them and want to convince the world that they hate you so can shout about it and take the supposed high road by boycotting them.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

I know wretched husks don't understand things like self respect, but it's a thing many men have.

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 20, 2023, 02:07:20 PM
It's portraying your decision as the result of you being a victim of a company that hates you.

Imagine contradicting yourself IN THE SAME POST.

Holy fuck...

Quote from: Grognard GM on July 20, 2023, 08:22:11 AM

Quote from: Fheredin on July 20, 2023, 08:04:12 AMOf course, the reverse is also true. I would finger quite a few posters here as throwing the baby out with the bath water by completely ignoring safety tool discussions at all, because if you abstract it it's just about not letting the content of the campaign meander into unproductive dead ends, and that includes the "unsafe" ends.

Or, and hear me out here, I don't bother playing with snowflakes and baby-brains. If I'm running Call Of Cthulhu, and a player wants to X-card blood, or spiders or whatever, in a GAME, they can feel free to go and find a nice Monopoly table.

...Uhh, you do realize that doesn't apply to my conclusion because I abstracted it away from just safety tools and into the broader social contract of the game? If you're going to reduce one of my posts to a single sentence, perhaps you could do yourself a favor by reading the second half of the sentence. Subordinate clauses, yo.

I understand your point of view, but my point is that you are entrenching an attitude rather than trying to advance the game, which limits your potential just as much as they have limited theirs. The leftists can't move past the X-Card because it's an offense-based mechanic and their political machinery depends on offense. You can move past it, but have chosen not to.

Neither of you are going anywhere, so pardon me for not seeing a ton of difference.

No, not really for sane people. Let me use my current group as an example:

The DM is sorta centre right
One player is very much a leftist (socialized medicine, unions are good, etc)
Other player I have no real idea and maybe he doesn't either, but he's Bi.
I'm a right wing conservative Christian Puritan.
But none of us is Woke, ergo we're not insane.

We're into our 3rd year of enjoying AD&D2e

Now, the loonies DO tend to certain games more than others, for instance PbtA games, 5e, Fate... The other type of loonies tend to other games like Myfarog or "Play it like we say Gary intended it to be played!" (BrOSR)...

I'm sure that you can find sane pèople playing those games, but it is a red flag to know someone plays that, something that warrants further inspection to gatekeep your table/group.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 20, 2023, 07:49:51 PM
I'm sure that you can find sane pèople playing those games, but it is a red flag to know someone plays that, something that warrants further inspection to gatekeep your table/group.

I find the litmus test for sanity, is "I like Experience-X, therefore I play Game-Y as it delivers for me," while loons will froth over "Game-Z is the end all be all, and everything else is outright wrong." After all, game systems are only tools for running games, not games in and of themselves. Much like saying "I like woodworking" is sane, but "I get excited about chisels" is verging on loon territory.

I avoid titles written with a partisan attitude because the writing itself is mediocre and deranged, and obviously written to sublimate the writer's own desire to mass murder white people.

Spire: The City Must Fall is a textbook example. It is about oppressed black elves rising up and genociding the evil white elves who oppress them. The allegory for real life race relations is as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face.

Unfortunately, these kinds of titles are everywhere nowadays. I haven't found any games that suit my tastes in years.