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Do players that love D&D 4e hate the D&D 5e playtest?

Started by Shawn Driscoll, May 31, 2012, 12:49:17 AM

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Marleycat

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544182I don't know. I have been gaming for a long time and been through plenty of edition war nonsense. But this is really a much more volatile group in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I know there are jerks on any side of a debate. But in this instance, it feels like a lot of these 4E avengers are nursing some longheld greivances and it comes out in the debates about 4E and other editions.

I can honestly say 4E is well designed for what it tries to do. But it just isn't for me. I don't have much interest in the kind of play it achieves and its design approach is the opposite of what I want in an RPG. There is room for people who like the 4E way and people who don't in the hobby. The problem I encounter is as soon as I state this, or offer possible reasons for why it never quite worked for me, it is an immediate inquisition followed by endless debate on minor points and attempts to desconstruct the language I am using. I find it very frustrating to communicate with such people. Possible I and others are unfairly projecting this sort of experience onto others who are merely passionate about 4E but not as ornery. But I do think there is a legitimate reason you see this issue raised again and again. And I do think these sorts of posters have really mired down discussions in a lot of places (there is almost no point in posting in certain sections of enworld now).

Very good insight.
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Sommerjon

#61
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544173I think there are lots of 4E fans who feel the way you do. The problem is there is some truth to what tdd is talking about here. There is a very loud and vocal group of pro-4E posters who say stuff like this all the time. To the point that they simply don't allow for opinions that differ from their own.
deleted
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

Benoist

#62
Quote from: Skywalker;544177There is a group of 4e fans who do say stuff like that. I am not sure that its the only edition to have fans who have a blind spot for the virtues of other editions and are vocal about it though.

The reasons 4e sticks out is that it is the current edition and it is being phased out, making such comments prominent, and 4e's design approach is markedly different from previous editions of the D&D, meaning that some arguments as its virtues fall into a blind spot of those who don't like the edition.

No. The reason it sticks out is that 4e is a completely different game that sucked the dick of the Forge and tried to be this "coherent" Tactico-storygame, whereas there is, despite the numerous twist and turns noticeable throughout the game's history, a recognizable tradition stretching from the OD&D roots all the way down into 3rd ed's design and, hopefully, beyond into 5e as well.

That's what these guys are railing against. They're railing against actual D&D.

Sacrosanct

4e has a place at the table just like every other edition.  I.e., people will continue to play it because that's their edition they like the most.  I just get frustrated at this sense of entitlement that seems to echo so loudly among 4e circles that they somehow deserve special treatment.

It was like StephenLS (I think) a few months ago, when he said something to the effect of "I'm going to go easy on 4e fans because imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and your edition was going away."

Um...as a player of 1e, the shoe has been on the other foot for 20 years.

Not to mention the other thing that bothers be are the claims of how 4e is objectively a better and funner version than the others before it.  But the thing that really annoys me are the people who trot out the "mother may I" BS, as if players of 1e all sit around sucking off the DM in hopes of a favor because a particular scenario wasn't explicitly spelled out for them.

Whenever I hear someone say "mother may I", that tells me that have zero cooperative social skills at the table because obviously they've never had a reasonable discussion and consensus as a group (players&DM).  If they did, then it wouldn't be a very big issue, let alone one that invokes a phrase that implies the players are all a bunch of kids begging at the feet of a DM.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Sacrosanct

Quote from: Benoist;544188That's what these guys are railing against. They're railing against actual D&D.


If you're talking about rulings not rules, than I agree with you.  DM fiat has been such a huge part of D&D as a core aspect that it's been explicitly called out numerous times among the editions.  And that's what make a freeform, sandbox rpg great.  There is no way you can quantify every scenario into a rule, so you go with what works for your gaming table and move in.  The forefathers of D&D have said over and over and over to not let the game get in the way of having fun, and to mold the game as you want it.

So yeah, people that are against rulings not rules?  That's pretty much against the culture of what makes D&D D&D.  Go play your boardgame.  But understand why the DM is called a Dungeon Master, and a referee before that.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Benoist

#65
Quote from: Sacrosanct;544190If you're talking about rulings not rules, than I agree with you.
Among other things, yes. I'm talking about the way 4e made the game about the rules and solely the rules (SYSTEM MATTERS!!ONE), about the total bullshit about story-everything, as if actual fucking role playing was an option in this game. About the one-size-fits-all game design. About edifying rules lawyering and whining bullshit as paragon of game play at the core of the game's design and aspirations. About "fun is this, get on with the fun, now now, it can't possibly be that thing instead" (whether we are talking about talking to town guards, rolling a save or die, whatever is deemed "unfun", wrong and boo hoo bad design). About the tactical encounter and skill challenges being the be-all, end-all of everything that is fun about this game. About everything that makes 4e this piece of shit Forge propaganda it really was.

There ARE some good things about 4e. There are. But man, what a shitcake it was around those few worthy ideas.

Sommerjon

Quote from: Benoist;544188No. The reason it sticks out is that 4e is a completely different game that sucked the dick of the Forge and tried to be this "coherent" Tactico-storygame, whereas there is, despite the numerous twist and turns noticeable throughout the game's history, a recognizable tradition stretching from the OD&D roots all the way down into 3rd ed's design and, hopefully, beyond into 5e as well.

That's what these guys are railing against. They're railing against actual D&D.
And people here are perplexed on why there are edition wars.....:rolleyes:
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

jibbajibba

Quote from: Benoist;544192Among other things, yes. I'm talking about the way 4e made the game about the rules and solely the rules (SYSTEM MATTERS!!ONE), about the total bullshit about story-everything, as if actual fucking role playing was an option in this game. About the one-size-fits-all game design. About edifying rules lawyering and whining bullshit as paragon of game play at the core of the game's design and aspirations. About "fun is this, get on with the fun, now now, it can't possibly be that thing instead" (whether we are talking about talking to town guards, rolling a save or die, whatever is deemed "unfun", wrong and boo hoo bad design). About the tactical encounter and skill challenges being the be-all, end-all of everything that is fun about this game. About everything that makes 4e this piece of shit Forge propaganda it really was.

There ARE some good things about 4e. There are. But man, what a shitcake it was around those few worthy ideas.

Can't help but think that Brendan might be the guy we send to the RPGSite/4E-Fans diplomatic summit though , eh :D
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Benoist

Quote from: Sommerjon;544193And people here are perplexed on why there are edition wars.....:rolleyes:

:forge:

Benoist

Quote from: jibbajibba;544194Can't help but think that Brendan might be the guy we send to the RPGSite/4E-Fans diplomatic summit though , eh :D

Yeah I'm guessing that might be a good idea. :D

Marleycat

Quote from: Benoist;544196Yeah I'm guessing that might be a good idea. :D

At least you admit you're not the most levelheaded guy on this topic.:)
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Benoist

Quote from: Marleycat;544199At least you admit you're not the most levelheaded guy on this topic. :)

Well of course. You did check out my avatar, right? ;)

PS: For the record, I did play, and would play 4e again. With the right people.

Sigmund

Quote from: Sacrosanct;5441894e has a place at the table just like every other edition.  I.e., people will continue to play it because that's their edition they like the most.  I just get frustrated at this sense of entitlement that seems to echo so loudly among 4e circles that they somehow deserve special treatment.

It was like StephenLS (I think) a few months ago, when he said something to the effect of "I'm going to go easy on 4e fans because imagine if the shoe was on the other foot and your edition was going away."

Um...as a player of 1e, the shoe has been on the other foot for 20 years.

Not to mention the other thing that bothers be are the claims of how 4e is objectively a better and funner version than the others before it.  But the thing that really annoys me are the people who trot out the "mother may I" BS, as if players of 1e all sit around sucking off the DM in hopes of a favor because a particular scenario wasn't explicitly spelled out for them.

Whenever I hear someone say "mother may I", that tells me that have zero cooperative social skills at the table because obviously they've never had a reasonable discussion and consensus as a group (players&DM).  If they did, then it wouldn't be a very big issue, let alone one that invokes a phrase that implies the players are all a bunch of kids begging at the feet of a DM.

I'm with you here. I absolutely do not get this at all. The complaints about DM fiat and DM interpretation making a game "broken" or "unplayable" are, without a doubt or exception, either complete lies or completely mistaken people problems rather than game problems. I've been playing D&D since '78, including all versions of D&D and a great many other traditional RPGs and not once in all this time have I observed these flaws in any RPG or RPG session. Not once. There's been many other flaws, but never those. Any person that posts, in a serious manner, this "mother may I" complaint causes me to immediately disregard anything they say about the game in question because it becomes obvious to me that they are either completely ignorant of the reality of the game, or fucking liars. My 6 year old son could make up better flaws for a game and he's never played D&D before. These people are among the lowest common denominators of our sub-culture. I'm with TDD, we'd be much better off without them, so here's hoping they all throw massive temper tantrums and storm out of our hobby in a great big pathetic huff. That would make my heart smile.
- Chris Sigmund

Old Loser

"I\'d rather be a killer than a victim."

Quote from: John Morrow;418271I role-play for the ride, not the destination.

Marleycat

#73
Quote from: Benoist;544200Well of course. You did check out my avatar, right? ;)

PS: For the record, I did play, and would play 4e again. With the right people.

Yeah I noticed, who is it?

As for 4e I would also play it again with the right people. My attitude about the game pretty much mirrors yours, but with far less vitrol.:)
Don\'t mess with cats we kill wizards in one blow.;)

Benoist

Quote from: Marleycat;544202Yeah I noticed, is it Jack Nicholson?
Nope. You've seen the Harry Potter movies, right? Sirius Black?
That's Gary Oldman in the pic. His "Wanted" poster in the Prisoner of Azkaban.