No

I fail to see the reason you have to lump every 4e fan in with a small outlying group.

Quote from: Sommerjon;544162So..a couple people have issues and you lump every single 4e fan in with them.....:banghead:

Quote from: thedungeondelver;544163I'm sorry, did you post in that thread?

So... the definition of "4e fan" is "someone who posted in that thread"?

In that case, it doesn't look like there's that many of 'em. We could probably take 'em in a fight, if we gang up on 'em.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;544118This is the reaction of 4e fans to 5e.  And any other versions of D&D.  This is people literally insisting nobody gets to have fun with any version of D&D, ever, except 4e.

As a 4e fan, who is also a fan of 1e, 2e, 5e and several retroclones, I beg to differ.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;544118This is the reaction of 4e fans to 5e.  And any other versions of D&D.  This is people literally insisting nobody gets to have fun with any version of D&D, ever, except 4e.  

Eh, I avoid sites that use substitute words to get around the profanity filter.  Either say what you fucking mean or leave out the colorful metaphors.  What's the deal with using "loving" as a replacement word?  Every time I see that, I zone out and close the link.

Quote from: Skywalker;544169As a 4e fan, who is also a fan of 1e, 2e, 5e and several retroclones, I beg to differ.

There is a difference between a 4venger and a 4E fan.

Quote from: Skywalker;544169As a 4e fan, who is also a fan of 1e, 2e, 5e and several retroclones, I beg to differ.

I think there are lots of 4E fans who feel the way you do. The problem is there is some truth to what tdd is talking about here. There is a very loud and vocal group of pro-4E posters who say stuff like this all the time. To the point that they simply don't allow for opinions that differ from their own.

Quote from: Skywalker;544169As a 4e fan, who is also a fan of 1e, 2e, 5e and several retroclones, I beg to differ.

If anything, the issue is that those - what, 10 people, tops - 10 or so pooflingers actually think that they represent the interests of the D&D fanbase at large.

Quote from: Sommerjon;544164No

I fail to see the reason you have to lump every 4e fan in with a small outlying group.

No, they shouldn't all be lumped together. I know a lot of very reasonable 4E fans. But if you post on virtually any forum, you encounter these guys (usually in groups) and they give 4E players a bad name. This isn't something folks are pulling out of thin air. They are on places like the WOTC forum (and not an insubstantial number either) as well as rpgnet and enworld.

Quote from: Skywalker;544169As a 4e fan, who is also a fan of 1e, 2e, 5e and several retroclones, I beg to differ.

You do know he was only meaning those specific people that posted in that specific thread not the entirety of 4e fans? Delver was making an indictment about Something Awful not 4e.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544173I think there are lots of 4E fans who feel the way you do. The problem is there is some truth to what tdd is talking about here. There is a very loud and vocal group of pro-4E posters who say stuff like this all the time. To the point that they simply don't allow for opinions that differ from their own.

There is a group of 4e fans who do say stuff like that. I am not sure that its the only edition to have fans who have a blind spot for the virtues of other editions and are vocal about it though.

The reasons 4e sticks out is that it is the current edition and it is being phased out, making such comments prominent, and 4e's design approach is markedly different from previous editions of the D&D, meaning that some arguments as its virtues fall into a blind spot of those who don't like the edition.

Quote from: Marleycat;544176You do know he was only meaning those specific people that posted in that specific thread not the entirety of 4e fans? Delver was making an indictment about Something Awful not 4e.

I read his post several time to see if that is what he meant, as I suspected that it might be the case. That is not how his posts read to me. If I misread it, then fair enough.

Quote from: Marleycat;544176You do know he was only meaning those specific people that posted in that specific thread not the entirety of 4e fans? Delver was making an indictment about Something Awful not 4e.

I agree that was his intent, but I can also see the confusion because he said 4e fans in general, and didn't specify the vocal minority.

Quote from: Skywalker;544177There is a group of 4e fans who do say stuff like that. I am not sure that its the only edition to have fans who have a blind spot for the virtues of other editions and are vocal about it though.

The reasons 4e sticks out is that it is the current edition and it is being phased out, making such comments prominent, and 4e's design approach is markedly different from previous editions of the D&D, meaning that some arguments as its virtues fall into a blind spot of those who don't like the edition.

I don't know. I have been gaming for a long time and been through plenty of edition war nonsense. But this is really a much more volatile group in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I know there are jerks on any side of a debate. But in this instance, it feels like a lot of these 4E avengers are nursing some longheld greivances and it comes out in the debates about 4E and other editions.

I can honestly say 4E is well designed for what it tries to do. But it just isn't for me. I don't have much interest in the kind of play it achieves and its design approach is the opposite of what I want in an RPG. There is room for people who like the 4E way and people who don't in the hobby. The problem I encounter is as soon as I state this, or offer possible reasons for why it never quite worked for me, it is an immediate inquisition followed by endless debate on minor points and attempts to desconstruct the language I am using. I find it very frustrating to communicate with such people. Possible I and others are unfairly projecting this sort of experience onto others who are merely passionate about 4E but not as ornery. But I do think there is a legitimate reason you see this issue raised again and again. And I do think these sorts of posters have really mired down discussions in a lot of places (there is almost no point in posting in certain sections of enworld now).

No harm no foul I just wanted to point that out. But Delver does have a certain sarcastic posting style that can be misunderstood in my opinion.

Quote from: Marleycat;544176You do know he was only meaning those specific people that posted in that specific thread not the entirety of 4e fans? Delver was making an indictment about Something Awful not 4e.

Quote from: Skywalker;544178I read his post several time to see if that is what he meant, as I suspected that it might be the case. That is not how his posts read to me. If I misread it, then fair enough.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;544179I agree that was his intent, but I can also see the confusion because he said 4e fans in general, and didn't specify the vocal minority.

Also, when anyone suggested a less extreme interpretation, he re-affirmed that he meant "4e fans".

Seems a bit extreme to me. I don't even *like* 4e, or 3e for that matter. But here I am, defending the 4e fans, because even though I see the later editions as deeply flawed, I can't say "And therefore no one should ever play these games" with a straight face. What the hell business is it of mine what other people play?