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Do players that love D&D 4e hate the D&D 5e playtest?

Started by Shawn Driscoll, May 31, 2012, 12:49:17 AM

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Sacrosanct

Quote from: Sommerjon;544347Character deaths from the first adventure(lvl1-3) in our Gray Vale Campaign


Anecdote =/= data

A better question would be, "What is the chance that each class can die from a single hit from an orc at level 1, and what is the chance of a character surviving from being poisoned or turned to stone at level 1"

Those are things you can objectively measure.  I would posit that BT is very much correct in this one particular subject.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Sommerjon

Quote from: Sacrosanct;544348Anecdote =/= data

A better question would be, "What is the chance that each class can die from a single hit from an orc at level 1, and what is the chance of a character surviving from being poisoned or turned to stone at level 1"

Those are things you can objectively measure.  I would posit that BT is very much correct in this one particular subject.
Oh true, my sessions are far more lethal and combats far shorter than what the various 4e detractors say.

I equate it to the idea of "This sucks and I will 'prove it' to you" then going out and over-exaggerating parts as 'proof'  Usually this is done in miniature gaming where someone 'knows' that unit/fig/etc is bad(cuz they read it on the internet typically) and to 'prove it' goes out of their way to get said unit/fig/etc killed.  But the concept works just as well in rpgs.
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

Black Vulmea

Quote from: Sacrosanct;5442214e . . . is by far the best for tactical combat . . .
No, it's not.

Really, it's not.
"Of course five generic Kobolds in a plain room is going to be dull. Making it potentially not dull is kinda the GM\'s job." - #Ladybird, theRPGsite

Really Bad Eggs - swashbuckling roleplaying games blog  | Promise City - Boot Hill campaign blog

ACS

Spinachcat

Wow, this site is gonna be fucked when 5e doesn't magically bring back the joy of 8th grade to everyone.

I am unsure which group is more screwed in the skull. The 4e people trying to shit on a yet to be published game or the pseudo-grogs trying to convince themselves that 5e is the second coming of 1e.

Skywalker

Quote from: Sacrosanct;544348A better question would be, "What is the chance that each class can die from a single hit from an orc at level 1, and what is the chance of a character surviving from being poisoned or turned to stone at level 1"

But even that alone isn't going to determine how lethal a game is. The chance of being hit, the number of attacks in a round, the speed at which opponents go down, healing, the variety of hits and how the death of a PC might effect the above for other PCs will also all have an impact.

I agree 4e is less lethal than previous editions, but it's more lethal than many 4e critics make it out to be IME. I saw more TPK in 4e than in any other editions. Sure, anecdote =/= fact, but I think there is more to tha matter than the one variable you mention.

Piestrio

Quote from: Spinachcat;544364Wow, this site is gonna be fucked when 5e doesn't magically bring back the joy of 8th grade to everyone.

I am unsure which group is more screwed in the skull. The 4e people trying to shit on a yet to be published game or the pseudo-grogs trying to convince themselves that 5e is the second coming of 1e.

I've no doubt WOTC is fully capable of fucking it up.

In fact I'd say their record with D&D does not inspire confidence.
Disclaimer: I attach no moral weight to the way you choose to pretend to be an elf.

Currently running: The Great Pendragon Campaign & DC Adventures - Timberline
Currently Playing: AD&D

Piestrio

Quote from: Black Vulmea;544355No, it's not.

Really, it's not.

"tactics" I'm these discussions usually excludes anything resembling thought.

Only selecting options from a list that you spent countless hours faffing over counts.
Disclaimer: I attach no moral weight to the way you choose to pretend to be an elf.

Currently running: The Great Pendragon Campaign & DC Adventures - Timberline
Currently Playing: AD&D

Bedrockbrendan

Quote from: Darwinism;544343How do you determine who's where? Ranges, how many goblins you catch in that fireball, if you have flank, so on.

Without a map and minis, it's purely mother-may-I. The DM says who's where and does so in a flawed manner; no one can really be expected to keep track of the ever-changing locations of eight to twelve different people all moving about in a grand melee accurately in their head. Some can, probably, the vast majority cannot.

Not that it's necessarily bad, but you're basically just relying on your DM to be fair/nice to you in those situations.

I wouldn't equate this with mother may I. I have used both miniatures and played without them. Provided the GM is 1) consistent and 2)provides accurate descriptions it is entirely possible to know where you are and where you can go. If the GM or players have difficulty picturing and keeping track of spacial  relationships, yes it can break down. In practice I have had good experiences with this method on both sides of the screen. Obviously you get more precision with a mat (and when the combat gets crazy we usually pull it out) but isn't so starkly black and white, with mother may i on one side and a battle mat on the other.

B.T.

Quote from: Sommerjon;544347Character deaths from the first adventure(lvl1-3) in our Gray Vale Campaign
Doesn't disprove a thing I said.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;530561Y\'know, I\'ve learned something from this thread. Both B.T. and Koltar are idiots, but whereas B.T. possesses a malign intelligence, Koltar is just a drooling fuckwit.

So, that\'s something, I guess.

DestroyYouAlot

Quote from: Sommerjon;544328There is?  Where is this implied setting located at?

I read through the big 3 books and fail to see this implied setting, however this part does jump out at me
"APPROACHES TO PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. AD&D is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn't been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participents desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure.  Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere. Those who desire to create and populate imaginary worlds with larger-than-life heroes and villains, who seek relaxation with a fascinating game, and who generally believe games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste."

The way the world works is pretty heavily implied throughout the 3 hardback books of AD&D.  As ever, D&D is a pretty specific brand of fantasy.  If you're restricted to understanding "setting" as "these place names", then you're sorta out of luck, I guess.
http://mightythews.blogspot.com/

a gaming blog where I ramble like a madman and make fun of shit

DestroyYouAlot

Quote from: Spinachcat;544364Wow, this site is gonna be fucked when 5e doesn't magically bring back the joy of 8th grade to everyone.

I am unsure which group is more screwed in the skull. The 4e people trying to shit on a yet to be published game or the pseudo-grogs trying to convince themselves that 5e is the second coming of 1e.

Since the bulk of opinions here have ranged from "cautious optimism" through "healthy skepticism", you're shooting a little wide, there.
http://mightythews.blogspot.com/

a gaming blog where I ramble like a madman and make fun of shit

Sommerjon

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;544399The way the world works is pretty heavily implied throughout the 3 hardback books of AD&D.  As ever, D&D is a pretty specific brand of fantasy.  If you're restricted to understanding "setting" as "these place names", then you're sorta out of luck, I guess.
Sorry, calling  BULLSHIT this time.
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

Sommerjon

Quote from: B.T.;544394Doesn't disprove a thing I said.
You didn't 'prove' anything.

You just said something and people here would rather take the negative as gospel than actually try.
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

Sacrosanct

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;544400Since the bulk of opinions here have ranged from "cautious optimism" through "healthy skepticism", you're shooting a little wide, there.

Yeah, I don't see anyone betting on it on being the next best thing.  Most of us have said there are a few things we like, but a lot of things we don't.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Piestrio

#164
Quote from: Sommerjon;544410Sorry, calling  BULLSHIT this time.

Maybe my DMG is special but it's filled with tables and examples. It talks about what towns and wilderness areas are like, it talks about what kind of people you can find in different places. It talks about the different races and how they act and live, etc...

If that's not "implied setting" I don't know what it.
Disclaimer: I attach no moral weight to the way you choose to pretend to be an elf.

Currently running: The Great Pendragon Campaign & DC Adventures - Timberline
Currently Playing: AD&D