Quote from: Darwinism;544313Any playstyle you really want, with roughly the same amount of effort it takes to make any other edition support any playstyle you want.

D&D hasn't been good at being anything but a murder simulator since AD&D, but people go through insane contortions to make it fit what they'd rather play.


Of course I'm sure this is pure heresy here because obviously 4E can only ever be a board game WoW on paper [insert comparison that fits any prior edition of D&D as well]. The hypocrisy really makes me smile.

The irony is, AD&D a) has a very strong implied setting, and a default mode of play (dungeon->wilderness->domain) but b) is super-flexible to do other modes of play and other settings (assuming you're familiar with the guts of the thing).  Admittedly, Classic is more flexible.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;544316The irony is, AD&D a) has a very strong implied setting, and a default mode of play (dungeon->wilderness->domain) but b) is super-flexible to do other modes of play and other settings (assuming you're familiar with the guts of the thing).  Admittedly, Classic is more flexible.

There is?  Where is this implied setting located at?

I read through the big 3 books and fail to see this implied setting, however this part does jump out at me
"APPROACHES TO PLAYING ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
A few brief words are necessary to insure that the reader has actually obtained a game form which he or she desires. Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinion an absurd effort at best considering the topic!). It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. AD&D is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek to use imagination and creativity. This is not to say that where it does not interfere with the flow of the game that the highest degree of realism hasn't been attempted, but neither is a serious approach to play discouraged. In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which can fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participents desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously. For fun, excitement, and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed. As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe, or even as a reflection of medieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure.  Readers who seek the latter must search elsewhere. Those who desire to create and populate imaginary worlds with larger-than-life heroes and villains, who seek relaxation with a fascinating game, and who generally believe games should be fun, not work, will hopefully find this system to their taste."

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544311What playstyles do you think 4e supports?

I asked first.

Quote from: Darwinism;544313Any playstyle you really want, with roughly the same amount of effort it takes to make any other edition support any playstyle you want.
.

Really?  My personal playstyle is one with out minis or maps, and quick resolution combat.  I much prefer the "zero to hero" style over "hero to superhero" playstyle.

How exactly can I do this with 4e with the same amount of effort as other editions?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;544311What playstyles do you think 4e supports?

Mary Sue and Gay Cousin Oliver Save the World

Quote from: Sacrosanct;544332Really?  My personal playstyle is one with out minis or maps, and quick resolution combat.  I much prefer the "zero to hero" style over "hero to superhero" playstyle.

How exactly can I do this with 4e with the same amount of effort as other editions?

Pretty easily! Defenders have three healing surges, strikers and leaders two, controllers one. Use the exact same mother-may-I as you would in other editions where you're not playing with minis or maps. Have people actually become familiar with their powers or just play Essentials classes.

Bam, done, that sure was easy.

Quote from: B.T.;544334Mary Sue and Gay Cousin Oliver Save the World

you know, this sort of stuff doesn't help

Quote from: B.T.;544334Mary Sue and Gay Cousin Oliver Save the World

No, no, BT, he said think.

I know it's foreign to you, but instead of bursting out BUT IT'S BAD he asked you to think.

Quote from: Darwinism;544337Pretty easily! Defenders have three healing surges, strikers and leaders two, controllers one. Use the exact same mother-may-I as you would in other editions where you're not playing with minis or maps. Have people actually become familiar with their powers or just play Essentials classes.

Bam, done, that sure was easy.

Well, I don't play mother may I, so I don't know what you're referring to.

Quote from: Darwinism;544339No, no, BT, he said think.

I know it's foreign to you, but instead of bursting out BUT IT'S BAD he asked you to think.

While my response was tongue-in-cheek, it was partially serious.  In 4e, every character is a precious snowflake, death is rare, and you never have to fear fleeing a perfectly balanced encounter.  Your character is a mighty hero from level one, and you will never, ever risk the inglorious death at the hands of Generic Orc #23.  You are a protagonist in an epic tale.  You were meant for greatness and glory.  All will listen to your five-page backstory and recognize your creative genius.  The DM will give you what you want, when you want it, or you're going to complain on the forums about it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;544340Well, I don't play mother may I, so I don't know what you're referring to.

How do you determine who's where? Ranges, how many goblins you catch in that fireball, if you have flank, so on.

Without a map and minis, it's purely mother-may-I. The DM says who's where and does so in a flawed manner; no one can really be expected to keep track of the ever-changing locations of eight to twelve different people all moving about in a grand melee accurately in their head. Some can, probably, the vast majority cannot.

Not that it's necessarily bad, but you're basically just relying on your DM to be fair/nice to you in those situations.

Quote from: B.T.;544342While my response was tongue-in-cheek, it was partially serious.  In 4e, every character is a precious snowflake, death is rare, and you never have to fear fleeing a perfectly balanced encounter.  Your character is a mighty hero from level one, and you will never, ever risk the inglorious death at the hands of Generic Orc #23.  You are a protagonist in an epic tale.  You were meant for greatness and glory.  All will listen to your five-page backstory and recognize your creative genius.  The DM will give you what you want, when you want it, or you're going to complain on the forums about it.

Sorry, you're basically wrong on all levels but I'm used to that from you.

Of course you won't believe it because obviously the opinions you've formed about 4E based on what you want to believe to justify your weird-ass hate for it are the right ones and nothing like silly logic or evidence will sway you.

Quote from: Darwinism;544344Sorry, you're basically wrong on all levels but I'm used to that from you.

Of course you won't believe it because obviously the opinions you've formed about 4E based on what you want to believe to justify your weird-ass hate for it are the right ones and nothing like silly logic or evidence will sway you.

You're welcome to prove me wrong.  I'm obviously exaggerating in some spots, but 4e is very much less lethal than every other edition of D&D.

Quote from: Darwinism;544343How do you determine who's where? Ranges, how many goblins you catch in that fireball, if you have flank, so on.

so...it appears that it's not as easy in 4e to adjust to my playstyle than other editions.  Not even you know that answer it seems.

QuoteWithout a map and minis, it's purely mother-may-I.

Again, I don't play mother may I.  the fact that you're using that term to begin with tells me that you're not being honest.  See, I've never had to beg a DM for anything.  I've never had to put myself at the mercy of a DM's whim.  There are times when I explain what I'm doing to the DM, and he or she evaluates it as part of the overall game play reasonably.  Sometimes other player input is used to come to a consensus for the table.  But it's a consensus.  

Oh, and those times where this happens?  Only a few times per session.  Without using minis or maps, how many times would this come up in a typical 8 hour session, with about 6 or 7 different combat encounters by using 4e?  More than once or twice?

I'm sorry, but 4e was designed with a very specific purpose, and it is objectively wrong that you can play all playstyles with those rules just as easily as other editions.  You literally have to ignore 80% of the rulebook, and if you're doing that, you might as well be playing a different game.

QuoteThe DM says who's where and does so in a flawed manner; no one can really be expected to keep track of the ever-changing locations of eight to twelve different people all moving about in a grand melee accurately in their head. Some can, probably, the vast majority cannot.

And yet, hundreds of thousands of us were able to do just that for 20+ years.  Are you implying that this new generation of gamers isn't as intelligent?  That would be sort of controversial, wouldn't it?

Oh, and at my gaming table at least, the DM doesn't decided where everyone is.  If the need arises, the DM usually asks, "Where are you at?"

Quote from: B.T.;544345You're welcome to prove me wrong.  I'm obviously exaggerating in some spots, but 4e is very much less lethal than every other edition of D&D.

Character deaths from the first adventure(lvl1-3) in our Gray Vale Campaign

QuoteRandar; Halfling Sorcerer(lvl1)
Gerraud Krane; Human Warlord(lvl 1)
Adrien D'Vough; Human Bard(lvl2)
Jack Samuelson; Human Paladin of Laphera(lvl 2)
Axel Mordon; Drow Assassin (lvl 2)
Wulbo Bullywoggin; Halfling Wizard(lvl 3)
Lo-Kag; Goliath Barbarian(lvl 3)
Derven; Revenant Warlock(lvl 3)