TheRPGSite

Do the players map the dungeon (or wilderness, or ruined castle, or cave system, whatever) as they explore it in your game?

Yes, players do the mapping for wilderness hexes and dungeons and towns. When they're not exploring somewhere new, I assume they know the general layout and do provide a map.

Sometimes I describe verbally. Sometimes, I'll make a sketch (using a sheet of paper, a white board, whatever) of the PCs' immediate surroundings, and it's up to the players to keep track of everything. Sometimes I'll go full blown Dwarven Forge and like wise, it'll describe a general area in the PCs vicinity, and it'll be up to the players to connect different set ups and see how the general layout works.

So I chose "yes, in a way."

I've had players not before, and then learn the hard way they should have.  "We flee!" "Okay what direction?" "The direction we came!" "Which is...?" and then have them painstakingly explore their way back out, being chased all the while.

Fuckin' pay attention or get eaten.

(There, you shitlords from SA, something for grognards.txt - go ahead and quote it, halloweenjack, and put that little dumb fuckin' smiley face with the axe next to it you predictable fuck)

I don't tell people they have to map, but I do suggest they might want to.

And laugh to myself when they don't.

One of them learned soon enough that there was no chance of exploring the Marmoreal Tomb in any sane manner without mapping. They also "tagged" already-explored areas with chalk... Only to discover that some of the tags are being erased by the dungeon's tenants (kobolds in thrall to the gnolls in the west wing, emboldened by the eradication of the goblins from area 21).

Quote from: thedungeondelver;747883(There, you shitlords from SA, something for grognards.txt - go ahead and quote it, halloweenjack, and put that little dumb fuckin' smiley face with the axe next to it you predictable fuck)

Is that still even a thing? Is it behind the paywall?

Quote from: The Butcher;747887Is that still even a thing? Is it behind the paywall?

Yep to both.

I grew tired of constantly calling out room dimensions and where items and monsters are. So I prefer to speed it all up by quickly sketching out the shape of the room on a battlemap or paper (accuracy not guaranteed.) If the players don't make a copy for their own use... well, tough.

we used to map.  Now I DM almost exclusively, and I find it much faster for me to give a quick sketch of the area rather than try to explain it.  Especially for very odd shaped areas.  Now most mapping just consists of very rough diagrams.

I usually provide players maps of areas that are civilized and well settled. This gives them a good idea of their initial surroundings and provides helpful inspiration and motivation to explore certain areas that they may wish to find out more about.
 My own copies of these maps will include things not shown on the players map. ;)

Once a wilderness area or dungeon is entered it is up to the players to map or not as they choose.

Quote from: Benoist;747878Do the players map the dungeon (or wilderness, or ruined castle, or cave system, whatever) as they explore it in your game?

Last campaign I ran we started out doing it but they felt it was slowing things down too much to have to pause every turn and draw it. But circumstances interfered to stop us playing before we settled on a quicker alternative. I like Sacrosanct's idea.

I love the idea of player's mapping, but in actual play, I find that the DM drawing the map is just fast and easier and FOR ME speeding up play leads to more immersion.

But that's the GM map for ease of play...

Smart players sketch their own along the way. Though, I do give leeway for high INT characters. It's not a stretch to believe that an INT 16 Wizard can sketch out a place he's recently been from memory.  Hell, that shouldn't be too much for an INT 13 Fighter either.

And Dwarves? They kinda have built in GPS when underground.

I have one of those dry erasable playmats that's always open in the middle of the table, so anyone can draw whatever diagrams or maps they want during the game. A couple of the players are really visual people, so normally I'll map out big areas beforehand. I'll end up drawing a bunch of diagrams during play to help them judge distances or angles, or if there's a certain object I want them to imagine in a specific way.

Been a lot of years since I've had players in a campaign do any mapping. Usually, it's been the GM that's sketched something out on a whiteboard, or done a more detailed map on a battlemat.

My players map intermittently if/when it's required (like in a large dungeon).  I provide them with a lot of maps as well, frequently as in-universe handouts.

In most of my sessions we have a giant map of Sigil sprawled across the table, with markers showing where characters are located.

I don't have a map so why would I expect them to have one?

More seriously I have a stack of A1 sheets of papper that my stuff was packed in when I moved out here. A bunch of this sit in the middle of the table and I sketch out a map as one is needed, which is currently kind of becoming a battle map as the players have been enjoying tactical combat stuff of late.
These sheets sit in a roll in teh cupboard and get labelled with a date an a place so we can revist them if needs be (as I said there are no other maps in play as I don't use them as a GM).

Speaking as someone who has tried to map stuff by eye as part of academic work it is almost worthless. The best you can do is create a topological diagram representing the area.

Try it now get a bit of "parchment" and freehand draw out the floorplan of say a local mall you go to a lot. The measurements will all be out by 10-15% minimum and a mall is regular and made up of blocks. Try that in a cave where there are no straight lines and where the floor itself isn't flat and the results are laughable.
There is a reason surveyors use equipment.

I would never draw anything for the players.  I assume multiple player groups or expeditions; discovering a likely location for a secret door based on the map is part of player skill.

Quote from: jibbajibbaSpeaking as someone who has tried to map stuff by eye as part of academic work it is almost worthless. The best you can do is create a topological diagram representing the area.

Try it now get a bit of "parchment" and freehand draw out the floorplan of say a local mall you go to a lot. The measurements will all be out by 10-15% minimum and a mall is regular and made up of blocks. Try that in a cave where there are no straight lines and where the floor itself isn't flat and the results are laughable.
There is a reason surveyors use equipment.

The point isn't accuracy, though, but useability.  Scale and measurements don't matter very much: which corridors lead where can matter a lot, especially when you're dealing with multi-level environments with more than about a dozen rooms.

Mapping isn't something I'd ever expect or demand from players, it's something I'd suggest as a strategy for effective dungeon exploration.

I haven't done player mapping for decades.  First off, it just takes so bloody much time.  I can think of a lot better things to do with my gaming hours than running mechanical drawing classes.

For another, it's spectacularly unrealistic.  You're going to operate quills and parchment and ink pots, in the middle of a dungeon?  Seriously?  Do the PCs have a floating writing desk?  Are they aware that ink spills, smears and smudges?  Where exactly does that damp parchment go when they're doing anything else?  (Pencils weren't invented until the late 16th century, artists' charcoals a century earlier, never mind the smudge factor.)  And how exactly are you measuring those room lengths precisely, those angles and heights precisely?  Is the PC who's doing the mapping an expert civil engineer bearing the Wondrous Sextant of Surveying?

For a third, it's tactically moronic.  If I'm in a dungeon, lethal encounters all around, what I am not doing is to put down my weapons and shield so that I can turn my back to everything and prop paper against a wall for scribbling.  (Never mind that the map would likely be toast should wandering nasties come through.)

Instead of all that trouble and fuss, I assume that PCs are good in the wilderness, and pay minimal attention to their surroundings.  Make your IQ or Survival roll?  Good.  Then you can retrace your steps.

hah. My very first D&D session with a RPG club was as the groups mapper.

Hopefully I still have the first wilderness hexcrawl from my first session with family. Which mostly showed us getting lost... a-lot...

Quote from: Steerpike;747957The point isn't accuracy, though, but useability.  Scale and measurements don't matter very much: which corridors lead where can matter a lot, especially when you're dealing with multi-level environments with more than about a dozen rooms.

Mapping isn't something I'd ever expect or demand from players, it's something I'd suggest as a strategy for effective dungeon exploration.

Agreed which is why I said topological maps are the best you can do (this area is connected to this area by this route). But then folk like Old Geezer will say that spotting where there ought to be a secret door due to the map is part of "player skill", but this skill only comes into play if the DM is giving precise distances and descriptions that would be very unlikely to occur in the real.

First off the use of graph paper means all coridors tend to be multiples of 5 feet wide and all rooms like wise. Back in the real this is bollocks. rooms are 12 3/4' by 11 1/2' not 10 by 10, corridors in most medieval buildings outside of palaces (if there are any) are 3 or 4 feet wide. A spiral staircase in a castle is typically 2-3 feet wide etc etc Caves are far far worse.
The fact that skilled players spot the obvious place for the secret door stuff is because they are given information at a level of detail that is unrealistic unless they actively measuring each room with plum lines, rules etc, or are autistic savants.

Quote from: RavenswingI haven't done player mapping for decades. First off, it just takes so bloody much time. I can think of a lot better things to do with my gaming hours than running mechanical drawing classes.

For another, it's spectacularly unrealistic. You're going to operate quills and parchment and ink pots, in the middle of a dungeon? Seriously? Do the PCs have a floating writing desk? Are they aware that ink spills, smears and smudges? Where exactly does that damp parchment go when they're doing anything else? (Pencils weren't invented until the late 16th century, artists' charcoals a century earlier, never mind the smudge factor.)

Both good points, although I think they can be mitigated if the map is crude enough.  In my mind a plausible looking adventurer-made dungeon map would have about as much detail as something like this (http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080107174742/thief/images/5/5b/TG_M4_map_page001.jpg), maybe a few more detailed bits here and there if they're are being really meticulous.

I can draw so I tend to end up mapping on either side of the figurative GM screen. Always much simpler representations than the old-school graph paper reproductions. On the GM side, whether I draw maps depends on the pace of the adventure, but I may do so whether or not the PCs are actually sitting there drawing a map, because making the players always rely on theater of the mind handicaps them relative to what their PCs could reasonably perceive, plus, since I am comfortable drawing, it can be faster that way.

Don't do mapping, don't do dungeons.

Dungeons I run are usually either improvised or abstract relationship maps, so we usually only use maps for either the geographical area, or if we want to more clearly visualise a space where something exciting is happening. We don't really play a game where every step is life or death, so we can just fast forward the boring parts and get to the exciting stuff.

It means that when an area is important, I have to be more descriptive and leave clues for important hidden stuff or traps.

I've toyed with writing room descriptions and dangers on cue cards, and drawing one for each exit when the party enters a room. I still like to know what's 2 rooms ahead so I can put hints into my descriptions and keep things contiguous.

Quote from: Kiero;748016Don't do mapping, don't do dungeons.

So why chime in? What do you hope to contribute by doing so, not just to this thread, but any of the times you post in a topic about magic or demihumans or dungeons or thieves (here or at other boards) about how the topic being at hand is a non-issue at your table because you simply don't truck with it? I don't mean to pick a fight, because I like you and you sometimes offer up some interesting perspectives, but what on earth was the point of this comment?

Quote from: Kiero;748016Don't do mapping, don't do dungeons.

So why chime in? Not to be rude, but... What do you hope to contribute by doing so, not just to this thread, but any of the times you post in a topic about magic or demihumans or dungeons or thieves (here or at other boards) about how the topic being at hand is a non-issue at your table because you simply don't truck with it? I don't mean to pick a fight, but why enter into a discussion about something you're not interested in just so you can say that it's irrelevant to you?

Are we just all supposed to see the light of doing it the Kiero way and abandon all our silly elves and wizards for rigorous bronze-age historical games? 'Cause that's probably not going to happen. We talk about mapping and dungeons because those are a feature of the kind of game we are interested in. Best case scenario we'll become interested in that as well.

My brother is a great advocate of using Mutants and Masterminds 2e for all kinds of campaigns, but if he were a member of this forum, I wouldn't expect him to go into one of your threads about your Tyche's Favorites thing and be all like "yeah, but that doesn't enter into my gaming, because I just play a modern-day superhero game using d20-based design principles." He'd just find or make a topic about something he did want to talk about and post in that instead.

Quote from: LibraryLass;748022So why chime in? Not to be rude, but... What do you hope to contribute by doing so, not just to this thread, but any of the times you post in a topic about magic or demihumans or dungeons or thieves (here or at other boards) about how the topic being at hand is a non-issue at your table because you simply don't truck with it? I don't mean to pick a fight, but why enter into a discussion about something you're not interested in just so you can say that it's irrelevant to you?  

In his defense, the site owner engages in this sort of threadcrap all too often.

But I agree that it's counterproductive as hell regardless of who's doing it.

We don't tend to play games where we'd need to map ourselves.

In modern-day games, we tend to get given laminated floorplans (Once we do the legwork, natch) or descriptions and sometimes a sketch, but we don't deal in precise locations; that's for our characters to deal with on the ground.

Even when we go spelunking in, say, Ars Magica, we'll get given a brief description of the area and MUD-like "exits leading from here", to investigate at will.

Stopped doing it late nineties or early noughties. Just didn't see what the point was after years of slavishly doing it. Unless the dungeon is particularly mazy, we figure that our characters know where they are going.

If there are multiple elevations, worm-holes and entries/exits, we sometimes still do 'cos we figure that'd be disorienting for the characters, so they'd be mapping in-game.

Our DM describes the room and one of our players maps.  If it's something that's tougher for the DM to describe to the mapper, he'll just take the map and draw it out.

Quote from: Ravenswing;747971Instead of all that trouble and fuss, I assume that PCs are good in the wilderness, and pay minimal attention to their surroundings.

That..........is why they died. :)

We don't typically map unless we have to, until it gets to combat.  That's on a grid/battlemat.

When last we played RotRL, I actually printed the area maps to scale, cut out the sections, and placed them room by room as tye party explored.

If the maps weren't already 'VTT ready' I'd just sketch right on the battlemat.

Quote from: LibraryLass;748022So why chime in?

To prove his awesome superiority, of course.

Or, perhaps he's just a dink.

Quote from: One Horse Town;748033Stopped doing it late nineties or early noughties. Just didn't see what the point was after years of slavishly doing it.

Because it's fun.

I enjoy the 'reveal the hidden map' aspect of the dungeon crawl, it's one of the best parts.

Quote from: exploderwizard;748040that..........is why they died. :)

:d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d :d

Quote from: exploderwizard;748040that..........is why they died. :)

:D :D :D

Quote from: LibraryLass;748022So why chime in? Not to be rude, but... What do you hope to contribute by doing so, not just to this thread, but any of the times you post in a topic about magic or demihumans or dungeons or thieves (here or at other boards) about how the topic being at hand is a non-issue at your table because you simply don't truck with it? I don't mean to pick a fight, but why enter into a discussion about something you're not interested in just so you can say that it's irrelevant to you?

I don't do mapping or dungeons either, for that matter.

That being said, the title of the thread is "Do players map the dungeon when you play?", not "How do your players manage mapping when you send them on dungeon crawls?"  I'd concede that Kiero's answer would be threadcrapping had the second one been the thread title.  Since the first one was, "No" is a valid response.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748246I don't do mapping or dungeons either, for that matter.

That being said, the title of the thread is "Do players map the dungeon when you play?", not "How do your players manage mapping when you send them on dungeon crawls?"  I'd concede that Kiero's answer would be threadcrapping had the second one been the thread title.  Since the first one was, "No" is a valid response.

Doesn't the question presuppose that there are dungeons to map in the games being talked about?

(shrugs)  A lot of folks -- especially those whose gaming experience is little but -- assume that "gaming" = "dungeoneering."  I wouldn't assume that any OP strictly meant "underground complex randomly inhabited by monsters and treasure."

Quote from: Ravenswing;748272(shrugs)  A lot of folks -- especially those whose gaming experience is little but -- assume that "gaming" = "dungeoneering."  I wouldn't assume that any OP strictly meant "underground complex randomly inhabited by monsters and treasure."

Well there is that poll in there about the level of mapping done which kinda assumes that theres something there to... well... map. Be it indoors or outdoors.

That said, there are games where I dont expect the characters to be mapping as they go. Call of Cthulhu, any given space or SF game. You certainly could be mapping stuff. But it just seems usually... inappropriate? I have though mapped out space routes in Universe and jump routes in Star Frontiers.

Quote from: LibraryLass;748022So why chime in? Not to be rude, but... What do you hope to contribute by doing so, not just to this thread, but any of the times you post in a topic about magic or demihumans or dungeons or thieves (here or at other boards) about how the topic being at hand is a non-issue at your table because you simply don't truck with it? I don't mean to pick a fight, but why enter into a discussion about something you're not interested in just so you can say that it's irrelevant to you?

Are we just all supposed to see the light of doing it the Kiero way and abandon all our silly elves and wizards for rigorous bronze-age historical games? 'Cause that's probably not going to happen. We talk about mapping and dungeons because those are a feature of the kind of game we are interested in. Best case scenario we'll become interested in that as well.

My brother is a great advocate of using Mutants and Masterminds 2e for all kinds of campaigns, but if he were a member of this forum, I wouldn't expect him to go into one of your threads about your Tyche's Favorites thing and be all like "yeah, but that doesn't enter into my gaming, because I just play a modern-day superhero game using d20-based design principles." He'd just find or make a topic about something he did want to talk about and post in that instead.

The OP is talking about fantasy games, and I'm talking about what we do when we play fantasy games - like our current 13th Age game. Which is definitely fantasy, but features no dungeons, and we don't map.

Nor did we map when we played D&D4e, or WFRP2e, again which didn't feature dungeons. Though there were some underground environments, but they weren't anything like the usual construction of a dungeon. Or treated any differently from the outdoor environments.

Hell, we didn't even start mapping when I started roleplaying with Red Box/RC/AD&D2e, and dungeons fell away altogether within six months.

I'm not referring to any of the non-fantasy games we've played, which obviously don't feature dungeons, nor have the capacity to in the main.

By the way, Tyche's Favourites is Iron Age, not Bronze Age.

Quote from: Omega;748287Well there is that poll in there about the level of mapping done which kinda assumes that theres something there to... well... map. Be it indoors or outdoors.

That said, there are games where I dont expect the characters to be mapping as they go. Call of Cthulhu, any given space or SF game. You certainly could be mapping stuff. But it just seems usually... inappropriate? I have though mapped out space routes in Universe and jump routes in Star Frontiers.

This is a great point. If you are playing a bunch of special forces black ops guys going into a jungle to take down a terrorist leader hidden in an underground secret base do you map that? If not why not? Why map D&D fantasy but not map for traveller, bunnies and burrows, post apocalypse scavenging or WoD?

"I like polls."  :p

Depends entirely on the game.  Old school D&D, absolutely.  L5R, not so much.  (Though they certainly could, no-one's offered and I've never suggested it.)

Quote from: jibbajibba;748308This is a great point. If you are playing a bunch of special forces black ops guys going into a jungle to take down a terrorist leader hidden in an underground secret base do you map that? If not why not?

For that sort of game, I'd expect;

1. The support staff to have provided us with the best maps they had, when we were planning the op, and the characters to have spent "enough" time looking at the files to know the layout
2. The characters (Who are evidently professionals at this sort of thing) to be good enough at local geography that they can handle rapidly learning the layout themselves, rather than delegating it to the players (Who are not going to be as good, on account of not being black op specialists)

Quote from: jibbajibba;748308This is a great point. If you are playing a bunch of special forces black ops guys going into a jungle to take down a terrorist leader hidden in an underground secret base do you map that? If not why not? Why map D&D fantasy but not map for traveller, bunnies and burrows, post apocalypse scavenging or WoD?

As ladybird mentioned, modern excursions like this already have maps.  Lots of them.  Miniature models of the compound as well.

Quote from: LibraryLass;748253Doesn't the question presuppose that there are dungeons to map in the games being talked about?

Quote from: Omega;748287Well there is that poll in there about the level of mapping done which kinda assumes that theres something there to... well... map. Be it indoors or outdoors.

Since I wrote the OP: Yes to both.

The question assumes there is something to explore and potentially map in the first place. This is not a thread for rants about how dungeons suck and so many people think gaming is all about dungeoneering blah blah blah.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748317As ladybird mentioned, modern excursions like this already have maps.  Lots of them.  Miniature models of the compound as well.

well not if its an underground base.
How is a 7th level thief who has been dungeoneering for years less able to make a mental map of an underground complex than a Sass guy?

But the black ops team is just one example.

WoD? when your vamps sneak into the tremere Chantry in 16th century Venice do they make maps?

What about your rabbits in B&B etc etc

Even switching to other very close games do you make maps in Runequest? Stormbringer? Pendragon? I am genuinely interested if the map making thing is an inheritance from early D&D play or if its actually standard across other games.
It certainly doesn't appear in any of the source material I can think of. You might get characters that chalk mark walls but characters actually drawing a map?

Quote from: jibbajibba;748308This is a great point. If you are playing a bunch of special forces black ops guys going into a jungle to take down a terrorist leader hidden in an underground secret base do you map that? If not why not? Why map D&D fantasy but not map for traveller, bunnies and burrows, post apocalypse scavenging or WoD?

I think its the sheer ability to get totally and absolutely lost in D&D that engenders it.

Dungeons can just go on and on and on and on and on and having a map to get back is absolutely vital to survival.

Whereas exploring a building complex or space ship is likely in and out. Or tech provides some maps.

We mapped infrequently in Gamma World. Usually situations didnt allow for it.

Which also applies to D&D. Sometimes the characters just didnt have time to map as they went. Or got lost during a running retreat.

Somewhat un-related but I hand mapped the hell out of the old D&D Roguelike. Lamorte and the Warrens I had mapped all the way to level 100 down simply because you needed to know where stairs, traps, elevators, etc were. Same for Bards Tale and the SSI D&D PC games.

Quote from: Omega;748337Which also applies to D&D. Sometimes the characters just didnt have time to map as they went. Or got lost during a running retreat.

Ah, yes, one of my favorite mapping rules from OD&D... "mapping is not possible during pursuit."

:D :D :D

Warms the cockles of my black little heart...

Quote from: jibbajibba;748308This is a great point. If you are playing a bunch of special forces black ops guys going into a jungle to take down a terrorist leader hidden in an underground secret base do you map that? If not why not? Why map D&D fantasy but not map for traveller, bunnies and burrows, post apocalypse scavenging or WoD?

I think we swing with a lot of shibboleths fixed in our heads by OD&D, is why.  I've heard staunch defenders of levels, character classes and niche protection confess that they don't find the concepts necessary or desirable in SF or supers gaming.  Why's that?  Is it because, say, that SF or supers lack identifiable archetypes?  Or -- as is much more likely -- is it the case that the first big industry leader fantasy RPG had levels and character classes, and the first big industry leaders SF and supers RPGs didn't?

I think the same thing applies here.  People map dungeons in OSR because mapping dungeons has been an expected paradigm since damn near Day One in fantasy games, and they don't map in other genres because there was never any routine paradigm that they ought to do so.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748383I think the same thing applies here.  People map dungeons in OSR because mapping dungeons has been an expected paradigm since damn near Day One in fantasy games, and they don't map in other genres because there was never any routine paradigm that they ought to do so.

I map a dungeon because usually its a maze and getting lost = dead group.

Once we hit about level 5 though we tended to ease off mapping and it was generally agreed on that by then the characters were going this naturally. I still map anyhow just because I like to.

Same as some people draw out maps for ANY game. Or dont. Personal prefference.

If say Star Frontiers ships were more maze-like then we'd be mapping those too. We did end up mapping the caverns on Volturnus and the start of that adventure is a hexcrawl.

Simmilarly in D&D we never tended to bother with mapping towers and such as they tended to be fairly straightforward.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748334It certainly doesn't appear in any of the source material I can think of. You might get characters that chalk mark walls but characters actually drawing a map?

Name another type of play besides dungeoncrawling where you are entering a place large enough to get lost and may need to get the hell out of dodge being chased by enemies.

Modern games mostly don't go into places that need to be mapped, or if they do, finding the existing maps, scouting the layout beforehand and mapping via hidden camera video or taking pictures is usually how the map is made.

There aren't many places where you can't get a good satellite image of the surrounding areas, and layouts of the building plans from public service companies and/or construction companies.  Legal or illegal, if you want intel, there is intel to be had.

Quote from: jibbajibbaIt certainly doesn't appear in any of the source material I can think of. You might get characters that chalk mark walls but characters actually drawing a map?

While the map isn't made by the protagonists as they go, maps play a pivotal role in The Hobbit.

Quote from: CRKrueger;748420Name another type of play besides dungeoncrawling where you are entering a place large enough to get lost and may need to get the hell out of dodge being chased by enemies.

Well, how about all the others?

I don't think I've ever played in a genre where groups weren't in large, unfamiliar, complex places, and might have to beat a hasty retreat.

My players almost never map but as a player I almost always map.  Maybe it's that old school experience in my distant youth.

GURPS does have a nice easy measurement spell that gives accurate measurements at a glance and doesn't cost any energy for a reasonably skilled mage.

Of course, more than anything in GURPS Magic, this spell has me wondering how they haven't utterly mastered physics.  I mean, wave your hand and "preston!" proof of the Higgs Bosun.

Quote from: Omega;748416I map a dungeon because usually its a maze and getting lost = dead group.

Once we hit about level 5 though we tended to ease off mapping and it was generally agreed on that by then the characters were going this naturally. I still map anyhow just because I like to.

Same as some people draw out maps for ANY game. Or dont. Personal prefference.

If say Star Frontiers ships were more maze-like then we'd be mapping those too. We did end up mapping the caverns on Volturnus and the start of that adventure is a hexcrawl.

Simmilarly in D&D we never tended to bother with mapping towers and such as they tended to be fairly straightforward.

I am not sure they do map for any game though as Ravenswing noted you don't map for a lot of games that have complex underground settings at least as detailed as a D&D dungeons.
So you did map the caverns of Volturnus did that seem like a natural process or did you feel yourselves "slip into D&D mode" (I have found if you shift a game to feel like a D&D game the game kind of moves towards it best example was Dreamlands in CoC. )?

so I have played all sorts of games with complex environments from Daredevils 1930s pulp set in ancient lost cities to exploring caves in CoC to exploring ancient decaying 10 mile long space hulks in Traveller. I don't think we made maps. I have larped a bit and we certainly didn't make maps and as I noted above I have actually tried to map actual cave complexes in Wales and Northumberland as part of a geography degree and its almost impossible with out equipment to get anything close to accurate.

I think we stopped doing it because of circumstance. we used to play D&D sitting on a wall at school as we got chucked out of the classrooms at lunch time apart from a once per week club. So with no suitable flat space we quickly learnt not to use minis, battle maps etc and mapping is a thing that is really hard to do on your lap (so much harder to do in a dungeon with a quill and ink on parchment : ) ) so we just stopped.

From those players who cut their teeth on say runequest rather than D&D was mapping the dungeon a thing?

Quote from: David Johansen;748463GURPS does have a nice easy measurement spell that gives accurate measurements at a glance and doesn't cost any energy for a reasonably skilled mage.

Of course, more than anything in GURPS Magic, this spell has me wondering how they haven't utterly mastered physics.  I mean, wave your hand and "preston!" proof of the Higgs Bosun.

I'm rather proud of that spell, I admit.

But using your specific example, while I concede that magic would crack a lot of the secrets of modern-day physics, Measurement wouldn't cut it.  Even if you're not one of those GMs who apply size modifiers to the targets of Information spells, you're attempting to measure something you can't see and you have no proof actually exists.  ;)

Quote from: jibbajibba;748478So you did map the caverns of Volturnus did that seem like a natural process or did you feel yourselves "slip into D&D mode" (I have found if you shift a game to feel like a D&D game the game kind of moves towards it best example was Dreamlands in CoC. )?

Natural. Its part of my "I hate to get lost" mentality in any game. I dont see the mapping urge as a purely D&D thing. Treasure maps pop up in fantasy and pirate themed tales now and then. And apparently others share my dislike of getting lost in a maze.

Though one reason for mapping a player introduced me to and I later adopted as well was the idea of mapping a dungeon with the idea of making it the party's, or in his case, his character's base later.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748334well not if its an underground base.
How is a 7th level thief who has been dungeoneering for years less able to make a mental map of an underground complex than a Sass guy?

But the black ops team is just one example.

How many special forces guys have you worked with, out of curiosity?  I'm here to tell you, in the context of modern military operations, having a map is pretty darn important.  Even for special operations, and yes, even for underground bases or what have you.  Have you seen the models they used for Bin Laden's compound?

And I hate to break it to you, but any time anyone (even special ops) goes into an area blind without knowing the layout, mistakes happen.

So your analogy of using modern operations to justify why an adventuring party doesn't need a map doesn't hold up, because a modern operation DOES need a map or they risk the same things an adventuring party does.

But personally, I think that's a bit of apples and oranges anyway.  A better analogy would be to compare cave explorers and spelunkers, because those people are going into environments similar to what a D&D party would during a dungeon crawl.  And guess what their view is on maps?

The major thematic antecedent to D&D dungeoneering is archaeological expeditions of the late 19th - early 20th century, exploring pyramids, tombs, and whatnot. The archaeologists were of course interested in mapping for academic purposes; the D&D dungeon distills it into a lurid survival experience.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748334Even switching to other very close games do you make maps in Runequest? Stormbringer? Pendragon? I am genuinely interested if the map making thing is an inheritance from early D&D play or if its actually standard across other games.
It certainly doesn't appear in any of the source material I can think of. You might get characters that chalk mark walls but characters actually drawing a map?

D&D is its own genre. The appeal to me and my buddies since we started playing when we were 10 is exploring underground labyrinths, not pretending to be heroes from movies or books.

A love of maps and exploring seems to be less of a thing now than it was in the early days of D&D. When I was a kid buying a new module with my allowance, the moment of greatest pleasure was pulling off the shrink and then pulling off the cover to peer at the map. The detail, scope, and architecture of the map set off a jolt dopamine to the brain. It represented a place of mystery and adventure. A tactical puzzle, a journey into the unknown, a vault holding secrets and wonders. And a player looking at the map of a dungeon he hadn't played was outright cheating that spoiled the game and would earn a ban from the table. That's how much we valued the sense of exploration and the gradual revealing of the map.

In recent years I've sometimes backed away from having the players map the dungeon. I take the shortcut of drawing them out myself for reasons of convenience and speed of play. But the game does lose something, for me, without the gradual exploration and reveal of the labyrinth from the PCs' point of view.

Quote from: Haffrung;748526When I was a kid buying a new module with my allowance, the moment of greatest pleasure was pulling off the shrink and then pulling off the cover to peer at the map. .

Goddamn right!

:D  Glad I wasn't the only one.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748488But using your specific example, while I concede that magic would crack a lot of the secrets of modern-day physics, Measurement wouldn't cut it.  Even if you're not one of those GMs who apply size modifiers to the targets of Information spells, you're attempting to measure something you can't see and you have no proof actually exists.  ;)

I'm sorry but that sounds like the very heart of magic.  Really I was expecting a magic as the absolute mastery of physics response.

But you're proud of it would imply that you wrote or suggested it.  Which is interesting, if I recall rightly, Measurement first appeared in a Roleplayer News Letter as a fan submission.  I wonder if I've still got those somewhere.

Quote from: Imp;748522The major thematic antecedent to D&D dungeoneering is archaeological expeditions of the late 19th - early 20th century, exploring pyramids, tombs, and whatnot. The archaeologists were of course interested in mapping for academic purposes; the D&D dungeon distills it into a lurid survival experience.

The first time Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz adventured in Blackmoor dungeon, they did the old Theseus in the Labyrinth routine with the huge roll of twine.

After about two hours, there were suddenly several tugs on the twine, and then it got yanked out of their hands.  It bounced on the floor unwinding rapidly until the last end of it disappeared into the darkness, and they heard
"SLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPP!!!"

That's where mapping came from.

Quote from: Haffrung;748526But the game does lose something, for me, without the gradual exploration and reveal of the labyrinth from the PCs' point of view.

Yes.  That something is "everything."

Large Starships = dungeon crawl.

Quote from: Old Geezer;748550The first time Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz adventured in Blackmoor dungeon, they did the old Theseus in the Labyrinth routine with the huge roll of twine.

After about two hours, there were suddenly several tugs on the twine, and then it got yanked out of their hands.  It bounced on the floor unwinding rapidly until the last end of it disappeared into the darkness, and they heard
"SLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPP!!!"

That's where mapping came from.

True story. Ernie told it to me. :)

Quote from: Benoist;748555True story. Ernie told it to me. :)

Heh.  Dave told it to me, and he still giggled like a maniac every time he told the story.

Quote from: Old Geezer;748566Heh.  Dave told it to me, and he still giggled like a maniac every time he told the story.

I think it was a jelly or some such that was sucking the rope like a spaghetti. LOL

Quote from: Haffrung;748526D&D is its own genre. The appeal to me and my buddies since we started playing when we were 10 is exploring underground labyrinths, not pretending to be heroes from movies or books.

A love of maps and exploring seems to be less of a thing now than it was in the early days of D&D. When I was a kid buying a new module with my allowance, the moment of greatest pleasure was pulling off the shrink and then pulling off the cover to peer at the map. The detail, scope, and architecture of the map set off a jolt dopamine to the brain. It represented a place of mystery and adventure. A tactical puzzle, a journey into the unknown, a vault holding secrets and wonders. And a player looking at the map of a dungeon he hadn't played was outright cheating that spoiled the game and would earn a ban from the table. That's how much we valued the sense of exploration and the gradual revealing of the map.

In recent years I've sometimes backed away from having the players map the dungeon. I take the shortcut of drawing them out myself for reasons of convenience and speed of play. But the game does lose something, for me, without the gradual exploration and reveal of the labyrinth from the PCs' point of view.

I agree wholeheatedly.

 There has been a shift of focus in modern gaming away from the wonders of settings and toward the ego stoking via fictional personalities.

The original game was all about the setting and uncovering the wonders and mysteries therin. The referee created the initial setting but it was the experiences shared with the players that brought the setting to life. This was important because, through discovery, the shared world was something the DM and players built together.

I have watched as the trend has moved away from settings and more toward character oriented things. The fictional personality is all important, and the setting is just a cheap painted backdrop serving as a greenscreen for characters to perform acts of ego stroking awesome again and again.

What seems to have been forgotten is that the setting (apart from the PCs) is in effect, the collective "character" of the DM. With a total focus on the mechanical capabilities of the characters and the setting largely irrelevant to that whole focus, that shared connection of the setting with the players is diminished.

The lack of mapping or indeed caring about the particulars of the setting at all, is merely one symptom of this.

Quote from: David Johansen;748540But you're proud of it would imply that you wrote or suggested it.  Which is interesting, if I recall rightly, Measurement first appeared in a Roleplayer News Letter as a fan submission.  I wonder if I've still got those somewhere.

I did an article for Roleplayer many years ago ("Minor Magics for GURPS") of a bunch of petty magics that wizards functioning in society -- as opposed to the paramilitary roles beloved of PCs -- would reasonably employ.  Spells like Measurement, Copy, Tell Time and the like were the result.

At best, I'll draw line-and-box graphs to get relationships right and so I can understand the complex.

The idea of drawing everything to scale and spending the time back-and-forth communicating to get it just right is something that stopped contributing anything to my gaming fun long ago.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748584The original game was all about the setting and uncovering the wonders and mysteries therin. The referee created the initial setting but it was the experiences shared with the players that brought the setting to life. This was important because, through discovery, the shared world was something the DM and players built together.

I have watched as the trend has moved away from settings and more toward character oriented things. The fictional personality is all important, and the setting is just a cheap painted backdrop serving as a greenscreen for characters to perform acts of ego stroking awesome again and again.

Errr ... exactly where were these wonders and mysteries of which you speak?

The early years of the hobby were dominated by one-dimensional quasi-settings that were little more than staging areas between dungeons, and those dungeons tended to be Encounter A resulting in Treasure B locked away in Trapped Chest C.  Players didn't burble happily about the rich descriptions GMs might give; they burbled about the monsters they killed and the traps that nearly got them and the cool magical loot they hauled out.  We're sure as hell not talking about Angkor Wat or Machu Picchu.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748521But personally, I think that's a bit of apples and oranges anyway.  A better analogy would be to compare cave explorers and spelunkers, because those people are going into environments similar to what a D&D party would during a dungeon crawl.  And guess what their view is on maps?

A lot of people have risen to the defense of maps, claiming that they're Really Very Important.

Well, no kidding.  But that was never what we were talking about.  When was the last pirate movie any one of you have seen that had the First Mate balancing inkpot and mapboard on Peg-Leg Pete's back, sketching as they went?  How many of those special forces teams have a cartographer on the fire missions, whipping out the protractors and French curves?

I don't dispute that having a map can be useful, although as someone whose done orienteering and coastal navigation, the ability of a layman to follow a topo map is badly overstated.  I just question where small groups of adventurers feasibly create running tactical maps of their positions.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748610How many of those special forces teams have a cartographer on the fire missions, whipping out the protractors and French curves?

You mean a tool like this?

(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/469/393/414/414393469_271.JPG)

The answer would be "all of us did."  Every single soldier is trained pretty extensively on mapping and land nav.  Those in combat MOSs are trained even further.  And you go through it again when you get to PLDC (school for non-commissioned officers)

When you're on mission, you're constantly referring to a map

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748521How many special forces guys have you worked with, out of curiosity?  I'm here to tell you, in the context of modern military operations, having a map is pretty darn important.  Even for special operations, and yes, even for underground bases or what have you.  Have you seen the models they used for Bin Laden's compound?

And I hate to break it to you, but any time anyone (even special ops) goes into an area blind without knowing the layout, mistakes happen.

So your analogy of using modern operations to justify why an adventuring party doesn't need a map doesn't hold up, because a modern operation DOES need a map or they risk the same things an adventuring party does.

But personally, I think that's a bit of apples and oranges anyway.  A better analogy would be to compare cave explorers and spelunkers, because those people are going into environments similar to what a D&D party would during a dungeon crawl.  And guess what their view is on maps?

I think you are mistaking things.

I am not saying don't take a map I am asking if these guys map as they go.

I see the treasure map , the map to the lonely mountain all as in game maps that is fine.
My question is 2 fold. If they are going into an unmapped area to Special forces types map the area as they go. And if the answer is no (which it is) then what skill does a special ops guy have that a 7th level D&D thief doesn't have in reference to spacial sense and memory, I doubt any.

As for Cavers. they love maps but again they take them in with them.
The way cavers work is the first time a cave is found some guys explore it. then the whole place is profesisonally mapped with equipment etc.
The guys who first explor the cave don;t try and map it as they go expecially not with ink and parchment.

(and the special forces question would be 2 - they used to run an expedition company and I went with them on an expedition to iceland - unless you count the royal marines when its a fair bit higher).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748616When you're on mission, you're constantly referring to a map

When you call the grid square removers to remove a grid square, you want to make sure it isn't your grid square they remove. ;)

I hate the "real life buildings aren't built in 5/10 foot increments" criticism of trad dungeon qmaps.

It's significant figures/abstraction, not "unrealism"

Quote from: Planet Algol;748690I hate the "real life buildings aren't built in 5/10 foot increments" criticism of trad dungeon qmaps.

It's significant figures/abstraction, not "unrealism"

Except if you expect the party to work out that there is a secret door between the old mill room and the dungeons because of the exact size of the rooms.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748608Errr ... exactly where were these wonders and mysteries of which you speak?

The early years of the hobby were dominated by one-dimensional quasi-settings that were little more than staging areas between dungeons, and those dungeons tended to be Encounter A resulting in Treasure B locked away in Trapped Chest C.  Players didn't burble happily about the rich descriptions GMs might give; they burbled about the monsters they killed and the traps that nearly got them and the cool magical loot they hauled out.  We're sure as hell not talking about Angkor Wat or Machu Picchu.

I'm speaking of the setting as it develops through play, not the beginning state of the DM's notes. The setting as written could be as simple as a small town with a nearby dungeon or as complex as an entire world, filling thousands of pages.

It doesn't matter because they are both equally lifeless until the experience of actual play creates something living that is shared by the group.

I don't about military special forces but I do have a lot of experience with Wilderness Orienteering. Plus in 15 years of playing fantasy boffer LARP I got to play in a large dungeon maze a handful of times.

The biggest difference from tabletop roleplaying is the presence of spacial awareness because you can see your surroundings. In short spacial awareness make the whole thing a hell of lot easier. So much so if that if you are good at it getting lost is very rare.

However without a map it hard to be precise. For example I can get myself without a map or compass through a given wildness area to a destination. But will happen is that I will come near it and have to walk a few doglegs to actually get to where I need to be. With a map and compass, I can just zero in right.

With few the mazes I encounter it not hard to get in or out. What is hard without a map is whether you missed anything or really found everything that is to be found.

And to support Old Geezer, pursuit hinders everything. Because your focus narrows to trying to elude your pursuer not trying to keep track of where you are.

The upshot of this is that trying to remember where you are with verbal descriptions alone is harder than what happens in real life period.

The closest I have come to mimicking real life is to use dwarven forces pieces to build up a view around where the players are in the maze. But only build out so far and tears down area beyond a certain point.

The results reflect my experiences on "getting lost".

1) Players can make their way in and out on memory alone.
2) They miss stuff unless they map and find gaps etc.
3) Players still make mistake one direction and get lost. What results pretty much what I experienced. You start heading off and more and more differences show up and soon you realize you took a wrong turn.
4) If the players start running through the dungeon in pursuit or being pursued I just do verbal only.

Quote from: Planet Algol;748690I hate the "real life buildings aren't built in 5/10 foot increments" criticism of trad dungeon qmaps.

It's significant figures/abstraction, not "unrealism"

In addition most real building are "rational" i.e. they are built for a purpose designed to be used on a regular basis by their inhabitants.

Where you get "mazes" in buildings is when multiple inhabitants build to their separate agenda without coordinating. (For example various historical cities). Or a building gets added to over time with the whim of the builder dominating. Even then there generally is overlying pattern that can be learned.

The megadungeon I been running is the remains of a underground dwarven city.

There is a large central cavern where at one is the main gates and at the other end, far away, is the mine head.

Surrounding the central cavern are rectangular dungeon mazes that are residences, workshops, palaces, etc. They are generally stack four high and there are six of these areas (3 on one side of the cavern and 3 on the other). Plus a fourth unfinished one on one side.

These are connected to the main cavern by a grand staircase with three landing that are sublevels of a dozen room each.

Plus each stack is connect at the topmost levels by a narrow strip that goes over the main cavern.

Finally at the mind head is a maze of tunnels descending into the depths.

Very rational layout as befits dwarven planning. However each level was customized so they are not all same.

Yes, players map. I will correct big mistakes (that would be obvious to anyone actually there and that probably arose from miscommunication) but I won't spend time ensuring every single room and hallway is absolutely perfect. It's a pretty standard process. One guy volunteers, then maps my words: "Your light illuminates a 30' stretch of hallway south that appears to turn west on the 30' foot square. Around the corner, the hallway continues west for 50' with doors on the north and south walls at the 30' mark and 40' marks, respectively and beyond 50' is unlit. It opens into a 30x30 room with the door located in the middle of the south wall." Sometimes it takes a few minutes to get the terminology sync'd up. I will dress it up with descriptions of sights, sounds, smells and temperature variances as appropriate of course.

We like the maps. They help us maintain a common visual framework. Plus, for us, they convey a sense of progress and accomplishment.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748643I think you are mistaking things.

I am not saying don't take a map I am asking if these guys map as they go.
.

I've never personally seen anyone map as they go because they already had the maps on hand.  About the closest thing I've seen (and done myself), is make notes and comments on the map I had, as I went.  I guess you could say that counts as mapping as you go.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748643My question is 2 fold. If they are going into an unmapped area to Special forces types map the area as they go. And if the answer is no (which it is) then what skill does a special ops guy have that a 7th level D&D thief doesn't have in reference to spacial sense and memory, I doubt any.

That 7th level thief, given their experience in stealth, combat, physical fitness and environmental traversal, basically is the in-setting equivalent of our special forces. The thief could probably go on mission with the special forces without needing too much more training; if they weren't that good, they'd be dead by now.

Quote from: dragoner;748680When you call the grid square removers to remove a grid square, you want to make sure it isn't your grid square they remove. ;)

heh.  Yep.  Several years ago when I was in Korea, the artillery guys were out practicing and they didn't check their coordinates well enough and ended up blowing up some of Odashi's cows.  That was expensive for uncle Sam.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748769heh.  Yep.  Several years ago when I was in Korea, the artillery guys were out practicing and they didn't check their coordinates well enough and ended up blowing up some of Odashi's cows.  That was expensive for uncle Sam.

 Cattle Explodes! Cow shrapnel drips off a tree cascades into a mothers tear. Poor little boy who goes into battle and comes back dead or worse comes back a man. Why don't you warn them moon? Why don't you say duck or scram? But the moon will not. The moon just sits there grinning like a corpse at a Dean Martin roast. What are you laughing at moon? Why don't you share it with the whole class moon? The moon laughs knowingly, the moon laughs, the moon, the.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748616When you're on mission, you're constantly referring to a map

You really aren't reading my posts, are you?

Of course the military constantly refers to maps, during combat patrols.

They do not MAKE maps during combat patrols.

Christ on a crutch, I can't for the life of me get what about the distinction is so terribly difficult for some people to grasp.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748774You really aren't reading my posts, are you?

Seeing as how your post asked how many of these guys whip out protractors, and my response was a picture of a protractor followed by "everyone", I'd say my response was exactly referencing what you actually wrote.

And as far as your other part?  I answered that as well:

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748764I've never personally seen anyone map as they go because they already had the maps on hand.  About the closest thing I've seen (and done myself), is make notes and comments on the map I had, as I went.  I guess you could say that counts as mapping as you go.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748774You really aren't reading my posts, are you?

Of course the military constantly refers to maps, during combat patrols.

They do not MAKE maps during combat patrols.

Christ on a crutch, I can't for the life of me get what about the distinction is so terribly difficult for some people to grasp.

There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

" Hey guys we really shouldn't be exploring this ruined city that no civilized person has laid eyes on in a thousand years without a map. " :rolleyes:

If you are referencing a map during an operation then the mission obviously isn't to discover what the area is like because you have a MAP!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

" Hey guys we really shouldn't be exploring this ruined city that no civilized person has laid eyes on in a thousand years without a map. " :rolleyes:

What has been typical is the explorers will find a local uncivilized and draft him as a scout.

The whole exploration cycle of D&D is a result of how the early campaigns developed. It doesn't reflect any known historical situation, it reflects how the players dealt with the challenges poised by Gygax and Arneson. The closest historical analogy would be the conquest of the conquistadors. And they basically either bribed or forced native inhabitants to act as guides rather than meticulously map. If an expedition resulted in maps it was because one or two members were assigned to act as mapmakers. They took note when they can and created a detailed maps later.

Even in the early campaigns there were players who were known to have the ability to navigate dungeon with their memory alone.

my live games, they map.
and make mistakes.

online, many of the games like roll20 have the built in mapping, but that is the only time my players don't map.

Quote from: estar;748786Even in the early campaigns there were players who were known to have the ability to navigate dungeon with their memory alone.

There are a lot of video games that test similar skills - something like Zelda or Metroid would be popular early (Video game) examples, but I'm sure there are earlier. Map knowledge is also a strong component in any form of competitive shooter, in a slightly different form.

As the GM, I draw it on my whiteboard as they see it.  Dealing with the inevitable misunderstandings between what I said (or think I said) and what was heard is just a waste of time (and it's usually honest).

As a player, I'm not going to do it for the same reasons.  Too many times what the GM says (or thinks they say) and what the players hear have almost nothing to do with anything.  If the point of your adventure is to get me lost, then lost I will be.  If that gets my character killed, then I'll happily roll up another.

As a fight larper, I've done a couple cool ass dungeons (and thick sprawling wilderness areas), and it's largely trivial to find your way in person.  Like others have said, the spatial awareness in person is very different than what a map would show.  Humans (and logically most fantasy humanoids) have tremendously good spatial awareness overall.  It's in fact one of the ways to learn to memorize things, by putting them in a place in an imagined space.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

" Hey guys we really shouldn't be exploring this ruined city that no civilized person has laid eyes on in a thousand years without a map. " :rolleyes:

If you are referencing a map during an operation then the mission obviously isn't to discover what the area is like because you have a MAP!

Hush, you and your "being smart enough to shit unassisted!"

Quote from: estar;748786What has been typical is the explorers will find a local uncivilized and draft him as a scout.

Hee hee hee, good luck.

If the local uncivilized has the guts to go into that damned ruin, he and his mates have already done so.  He obviously survived, so he's one of the good ones.  What he knows about that place is now a professional secret, and he's damned if he's going to tell you.

Or he DOESN'T have the guts, and you're going to get twenty feet in and discover that your "guide" is totally worthless.

Quote from: Old Geezer;748819Hee hee hee, good luck.

If the local uncivilized has the guts to go into that damned ruin, he and his mates have already done so.  He obviously survived, so he's one of the good ones.  What he knows about that place is now a professional secret, and he's damned if he's going to tell you.

Or he DOESN'T have the guts, and you're going to get twenty feet in and discover that your "guide" is totally worthless.

Or the guide got only so far, couldnt bypass some trap and is now using the PCs as his or her stalking horse to get deeper in finally. And plans to betray and/or rob them once they hit the jackpot.

Or the guide is really the cult leader leading them to their doom. Ia Ia!

Or the guide allready robbed the place and is just milking the adventurers for more coin. Possibly having previously reset the traps so it "looks" dangerous.

etc ad guidium.

Quote from: Omega;748959Or the guide got only so far, couldnt bypass some trap and is now using the PCs as his or her stalking horse to get deeper in finally. And plans to betray and/or rob them once they hit the jackpot.

Or the guide is really the cult leader leading them to their doom. Ia Ia!

Or the guide allready robbed the place and is just milking the adventurers for more coin. Possibly having previously reset the traps so it "looks" dangerous.

etc ad guidium.

By the Great Horn Spoon, Jim lad, I like the cut of your Genny!

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

And one enormous similarity: it's tactically stupid for a small unit to be doing so in a free fire zone where they can be -- and probably will be -- attacked at any time.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748776Seeing as how your post asked how many of these guys whip out protractors, and my response was a picture of a protractor followed by "everyone", I'd say my response was exactly referencing what you actually wrote.

That would go to the part about you not really reading my posts.  Let's see if I can help you with the key word you either missed or ignored.

QuoteHow many of those special forces teams have a cartographer on the fire missions, whipping out the protractors and French curves?

I'm presuming you don't need help on the definition of "cartographer," except in so far as it doesn't include forward observers, fire controllers or orienteerers.  Next time you claim you "exactly reference" a post, how about you actually exactly reference it?[/COLOR]

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748779There is quite a bit of difference between a modern military operation and a group of dungeon adventurers exploring locations that may have never been mapped before.

" Hey guys we really shouldn't be exploring this ruined city that no civilized person has laid eyes on in a thousand years without a map. " :rolleyes:

If you are referencing a map during an operation then the mission obviously isn't to discover what the area is like because you have a MAP!

Which is a fair point. What they ought to do is to carefully map the complex  properly, step by step using measures and equipment. Anything else would possibly endanger a very valuable archeological record. However, D&D characters aren't archeologists they are at best tomb raiders.
My previous point remains unanswered why is mapping essential in old school D&D but not in say the exploration of an ancient lost city in CoC or another pulp game? What meme triggers mapping as a key part of the process in one game but not in another?

Oh and for the guys that think a map really helps in a pursuit... I disagree. If you are running sword in one hand lantern/torch in another you have no time to consult a map its not a tomtom after all.
One of the things I used to love to do when my daughter was 4 or 5 was go into a maze, either at a stately home park type place or down at a local garden centre where they create a maize maze each year and just run through it. Give up on finding your way through caution and run full tilt. Excellent fun chasing your mates through a maze at high speed. Time to check a map? Nope no chance at all.

As estar says if you are actually in a space your spatial awareness is far more persuasive. I for one find first person shooters really confusing but never get lost running round exploring stuff etc. How do you try and map that reality back to the game? Estar's dwarven forge method is great if you have the time patience etc but not for everyone.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748966And one enormous similarity: it's tactically stupid for a small unit to be doing so in a free fire zone where they can be -- and probably will be -- attacked at any time.

Take notes kids. That's right, adventuring is fucking dangerous and only for the foolish who are of stout heart.

In other news, water is still wet, and the sky largely remains blue. Film at 11.

If you don't care about stealth, bring a sledge hammer and take a chunk out of each corner.  I'm a big believer in bringing a few useful tools to the dungeon.

Usually a wood axe, a sledge, a bow saw, and a wrecking bar.

Too heavy?  That's what henchmen are for!

Quote from: David Johansen;749025If you don't care about stealth, bring a sledge hammer and take a chunk out of each corner.  I'm a big believer in bringing a few useful tools to the dungeon.

Usually a wood axe, a sledge, a bow saw, and a wrecking bar.

Too heavy?  That's what henchmen are for!

A common piece of equipment all of my PCs have is chalk.  But the problem is we have a generation of gamers (mostly 4anbois) who can't think outside of the box (http://daegames.blogspot.com/2014/03/legends-lore-dropping-shop.html) and literally throw a fit if a game includes chalk in an equipment list.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748966That would go to the part about you not really reading my posts.  Let's see if I can help you with the key word you either missed or ignored.



I'm presuming you don't need help on the definition of "cartographer," except in so far as it doesn't include forward observers, fire controllers or orienteerers.  Next time you claim you "exactly reference" a post, how about you actually exactly reference it?

:rotfl: the irony about not reading posts.

I didn't think you literally meant a professional cartographer, because how many adventuring parties have a PC who is a professional cartographer?  The answer is probably "not many", so therefore your analogy falls apart from the get go.  I assumed you were talking about having someone part of the group who was somewhat skilled in mapreading/making.

And here is where the irony of you accusing me of not reading posts comes in:

As I said, the answer to that in a modern military group is EVERYONE.  I literally even spelled out the training that every basic soldier goes through, let alone someone who is special forces.

At this point I have to conclude that you have no clue how a modern military squad works, or what training they have.  And stop accusing others or not reading posts when clearly you haven't been.  Hell, I even used pictures for the reading impaired.

My players use to and I had one player who insisted he would map out a dungeon every time they entered one because of always getting lost or turned around in one but since then, not really anymore, they always fly by the seat of their pants now.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749028A common piece of equipment all of my PCs have is chalk.  But the problem is we have a generation of gamers (mostly 4anbois) who can't think outside of the box (http://daegames.blogspot.com/2014/03/legends-lore-dropping-shop.html) and literally throw a fit if a game includes chalk in an equipment list.

Did you know Ochre Jellies love the taste of chalk and will slurp it right off the walls?  True story.

Quote from: Old Geezer;749045Did you know Ochre Jellies love the taste of chalk and will slurp it right off the walls?  True story.

to be fair, 1970s D&D seemed to be an arms race between the DM and players.  Players come up with a way to overcome a challenge, DM invents a monster to nullify that process.  Rinse and repeat ;)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749051to be fair, 1970s D&D seemed to be an arms race between the DM and players.  Players come up with a way to overcome a challenge, DM invents a monster to nullify that process.  Rinse and repeat ;)

Well, of course... that's what makes the game interesting.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749030(snip)

Started to write a response; changed my tune.  It's not as if you're looking for a discussion in any event: you're looking to Win, and you're apparently willing to cherry pick any statement to suit.

The position that modern military combat patrols do not make maps on route march was basic, simple and accurate; it shouldn't need, or warrant, dozens of posts to debate.

'Hah! you dumb bastard, they use maps, so there!!' isn't -- and shouldn't -- be the point.  'Look, I posted a picture of a military measurement template!!' isn't any sort of answer.  Nor is the absurd implication that every modern soldier is skilled at orienteering, which is not only beside the point, but it's about as accurate as claiming that every modern soldier is a skilled rifleman, just because every recruit has to qualify as a boot.  

So I'll make it easy on you: you can just unilaterally decide what it actually is you're debating, and we can all proclaim that you Won, and you can stick a shiny gold star on your forehead.  Works for you?

Quote from: Ravenswing;749121Started to write a response; changed my tune.  It's not as if you're looking for a discussion in any event: you're looking to Win, and you're apparently willing to cherry pick any statement to suit.

The position that modern military combat patrols do not make maps on route march was basic, simple and accurate; it shouldn't need, or warrant, dozens of posts to debate.

'Hah! you dumb bastard, they use maps, so there!!' isn't -- and shouldn't -- be the point.  'Look, I posted a picture of a military measurement template!!' isn't any sort of answer.  Nor is the absurd implication that every modern soldier is skilled at orienteering, which is not only beside the point, but it's about as accurate as claiming that every modern soldier is a skilled rifleman, just because every recruit has to qualify as a boot.  

So I'll make it easy on you: you can just unilaterally decide what it actually is you're debating, and we can all proclaim that you Won, and you can stick a shiny gold star on your forehead.  Works for you?

So basically, you can't refute the fact that I had addressed your points unlike what you claimed, and that it was you that hadn't been reading mine (thus the irony) and now are throwing a fit about it?

OK, as long as we're on the same page.

Because you see, I assumed you were trying to make an analogy with a D&D adventuring party with the modern military, but it seems now that that analogy makes zero sense based on your response.  I thought you were arguing that PC's shouldn't have to make maps because modern military people don't when on a mission.  Well, the fact that modern military already have them and thus don't need to make them while they are going along is a pretty relevant thing to that argument, don't you?  I imagine if the typical adventuring party already had detailed maps of the area, they wouldn't need to map as they go either.  This isn't some insignificant thing that you can just hand wave away because it hurts your argument.  Not to mention the fact that yes, we in the military do update and make notes to our maps all the freaking time, as we are on mission.

Also, me posting a picture of the protractor is in fact an answer.  In fact, it was a direct answer to your question about who in the military breaks out protractors.  The answer was "everyone", and I showed you the exact tool we use.  If you don't want your questions answered, then don't ask them.  Also, every soldier is skilled at orienteering.  Certainly as much if not more skilled than your typical adventurer, which is sort of important since you were the one making the analogy between the two from the get go.  Since you got caught up in the literal definition of a cartographer, it begs the question: "How many members of a typical D&D adventuring party meet those qualifications?"  Because if the answer is "none" or "hardly any", then why make the comparison at all, with the implication that members of an adventuring party are somehow more skilled at land nav than a modern military person is?

As far as I can tell, you're all over the board, shifting goalposts every time your "point" gets refuted.

As an aside- I enjoyed the way Hackmaster 5th did mapping.  Unless the player had the cartographer skill, said player was not allowed to map at all!

Quote from: Omega;748959Or the guide got only so far, couldnt bypass some trap and is now using the PCs as his or her stalking horse to get deeper in finally. And plans to betray and/or rob them once they hit the jackpot.

Or the guide is really the cult leader leading them to their doom. Ia Ia!

Or the guide allready robbed the place and is just milking the adventurers for more coin. Possibly having previously reset the traps so it "looks" dangerous.

etc ad guidium.

Or he goes along and tries to rob and/or kill you when he thinks he can pull it off. For heaven's sake have people actually forgotten the first ten minutes of Raiders of the Lost Ark?

I think some people give up on mapping because they believe their map, based on the DM's descriptions, has to resemble the one the DM is using. As a player I never found it necessary to get the dimensions of each room and corridor right: just a few lines showing what leads where, and anything of interest found. Kinda like this:

(http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n87/Elfdart/Map-1.png)

Quote from: jibbajibba;748968My previous point remains unanswered why is mapping essential in old school D&D but not in say the exploration of an ancient lost city in CoC or another pulp game? What meme triggers mapping as a key part of the process in one game but not in another?

Personally. I think mapping came about in fantasy RPGs due to the presence of secret doors and secret rooms. About the only way to find them without a lucky detect roll was by noting inconsistencies in the map.

I think the other reason for mapping is a sort of "uncharted territory" frame of mind and the maze-like nature of most fantasy dungeons.

And of course some just like to.

I do believe that mapping does not occur in every instance. As I noted earlier. I do not recall us ever mapping a tower or castle. Nor any ships.

Jannet showed me her personal map of the steam tunnels under UCLA. And I am told locally the Ann Arbor tunnels are even more of a dungeon-like maze. I did a little research and found this.

Spoiler

(http://mysbfiles.stonybrook.edu/~delton/UE/Maps/Ann_Arbor1975.jpg)

forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rpgs you were fucked lol

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749492forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rpgs you were fucked lol

Still have my maps of Lamorte and Scara Brae. Mapped alot of the SSI D&D games and Buck Rogers too.

Quote from: Omega;749490Personally. I think mapping came about in fantasy RPGs due to the presence of secret doors and secret rooms. About the only way to find them without a lucky detect roll was by noting inconsistencies in the map.

I think the other reason for mapping is a sort of "uncharted territory" frame of mind and the maze-like nature of most fantasy dungeons.

And of course some just like to.

I do believe that mapping does not occur in every instance. As I noted earlier. I do not recall us ever mapping a tower or castle. Nor any ships.

Again though I have played lots of Pulpy games with lost cities and what not, CoC, Daredevils, SW, etc and here you have secret doors and lost rooms and rooms where you have to stick a big staff with a gem on the top to find out where to find the loist arc etc etc .

Your point round map the rooms to find out where the secret doors are is one of my biggest hangups because that only works with really accurate maps and when you are summing up to 5' increments and the PCs never actually measure anything any maps they produce will be wildly inaccurate (autistic dwarven savants aside).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749492forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rpgs you were fucked lol

I mapped my way through all Fighting Fantasy game books I read.

I actually got the City of Thieves map I made, tweaked and D&Dfied it, and placed it in my D&D RC campaign. Players got there, went to a brothel and had their asses handed to them by a Devil Swine madame.

Quote from: jibbajibba;749505Your point round map the rooms to find out where the secret doors are is one of my biggest hangups because that only works with really accurate maps and when you are summing up to 5' increments and the PCs never actually measure anything any maps they produce will be wildly inaccurate (autistic dwarven savants aside).

10' incriments we went by. And yes, absolutely only works when the place is plotted out on a grid.

No grid. Not as much mapping. Though I've done like elfdart with the basic box-line-box style. Just mapping intersections and branches. And I've mapped CoC locales when it seemed appropriate.

Quote from: The Butcher;749506I mapped my way through all Fighting Fantasy game books I read.

I actually got the City of Thieves map I made, tweaked and D&Dfied it, and placed it in my D&D RC campaign. Players got there, went to a brothel and had their asses handed to them by a Devil Swine madame.

I mapped Hell house because it turned out that the place actually followed a defined pattern once you realized all the directions were perspective.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;749492forget about old school D&D, if you didn't map old school video game rgs you were fucked lol

well unil you realise that most of them only have 3 rooms in the "maze" and that each exit merely links back to the same location. So drop unique but useless items in each room then try each direction til you get to a room that doesn't have the item in then repeat and then the maze ends up at close to 3 or 4 moves to negotiate.
Once you get it down you just memorise it.
I remember memorising the first 200 moves or so to The Hobbit on my spectrum. becuase you couldn't save it and our house ran of a 50p electric meter it meant that I woudl log in and as quickly as possible type in "N,W,S, take torch, N, search bag ,N, etc etc so I could get to the new bit.
It retrospect a bit dull and probably why I never completed it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748968My previous point remains unanswered why is mapping essential in old school D&D but not in say the exploration of an ancient lost city in CoC or another pulp game? What meme triggers mapping as a key part of the process in one game but not in another?

Think I found your reason.

Early TSR Modules.

B01 In search of the Unknown and is in my Keep on the Borderlands.

QuoteOne player in the group should be designated as the leader, or "caller" for the party, while another one or two players can be selected as mappers (at least one is a must!).

and

The player or players mapping the explored area should use graph paper. Orient them according to the same directions on the referee's map.

and

Encourage good mapping skills and an attention to detail rather than falling into the rut of continual player map questions.

Quote from: Omega;749670Think I found your reason.

Early TSR Modules.

B01 In search of the Unknown and is in my Keep on the Borderlands.

Great stuff :)

Anyone still use callers ?

Quote from: jibbajibba;749727Great stuff :)

Anyone still use callers ?

I think they're probably less necessary in the smaller groups that tend to be favored nowadays. It's easier to keep four people coordinated than it is six or seven.

That said I've always wanted to give it a try.

Quote from: LibraryLass;749733I think they're probably less necessary in the smaller groups that tend to be favored nowadays. It's easier to keep four people coordinated than it is six or seven.

That said I've always wanted to give it a try.

I think it fell away when PCs became more character than playing piece.

I used to run games for 12+ players at the same table but because they were all pursuing their own agendas a common caller would never have worked.

Quote from: jibbajibba;749727Great stuff :)

Anyone still use callers ?

I am often singled out to be the caller. Group player dynamics sometimes thwarts that.

When I DM the PC with the highest level & CHA is the caller.

NOT a dump stat.

Quote from: Omega;749752I am often singled out to be the caller. Group player dynamics sometimes thwarts that.

Gary and Dave (and many others of us) play the game partially as a simulation... if the players are yammering over each other and making so much noise the caller can't hear the ref, or talking over him, or arguing, or whatever, then their characters are standing around in the dungeon running their mouths, arguing, talking about how much ale they drank last night and how many bar wenches they banged, etc, etc, etc...

...in a fucking lightless monster-filled hellhole deep under the ground.

Quote from: Old Geezer;750642Gary and Dave (and many others of us) play the game partially as a simulation... if the players are yammering over each other and making so much noise the caller can't hear the ref, or talking over him, or arguing, or whatever, then their characters are standing around in the dungeon running their mouths, arguing, talking about how much ale they drank last night and how many bar wenches they banged, etc, etc, etc...

...in a fucking lightless monster-filled hellhole deep under the ground.

We've always played like that. Bickering or yapping off-topic while exploring the crypt of the lizard king? Those sarcophagi start to open ever so slowly... Want to discuss tactics at length while the gnolls are firing arrows at you from across the chasm? Go ahead. But that's your turn. And in the meantime they're signalling to their hidden allies to flank you as you stand dithering about what to do next.

I never force any of my players to map; but of course I also don't help them if they get lost in the dungeon. In any case, in any group I've found there's usually one guy who is keen to map things out without even being asked.

Quote from: RPGPundit;750807I never force any of my players to map; but of course I also don't help them if they get lost in the dungeon. In any case, in any group I've found there's usually one guy who is keen to map things out without even being asked.

Yeah, mapping evolved out of what the game needed, not something that was arbitrarily put in.

A charmed local is another handy lazy adventurer's solution.

Quote from: David Johansen;750848A charmed local is another handy lazy adventurer's solution.

Anybody low level enough to charm knows nothing.

Quote from: Old Geezer;750642Gary and Dave (and many others of us) play the game partially as a simulation... if the players are yammering over each other and making so much noise the caller can't hear the ref, or talking over him, or arguing, or whatever, then their characters are standing around in the dungeon running their mouths, arguing, talking about how much ale they drank last night and how many bar wenches they banged, etc, etc, etc...

...in a fucking lightless monster-filled hellhole deep under the ground.

Yeah, thats the thwarted part for sure.

Though luckily never had players actually jabbering while the DM is talking.
But once the DM stopps talking, whoooo, Ive had a two groups where one or several players just wouldnt shut up.

Least it was in character banter and got the group in grand trouble. This sort of comedy writes itself.