The major thematic antecedent to D&D dungeoneering is archaeological expeditions of the late 19th - early 20th century, exploring pyramids, tombs, and whatnot. The archaeologists were of course interested in mapping for academic purposes; the D&D dungeon distills it into a lurid survival experience.

Quote from: jibbajibba;748334Even switching to other very close games do you make maps in Runequest? Stormbringer? Pendragon? I am genuinely interested if the map making thing is an inheritance from early D&D play or if its actually standard across other games.
It certainly doesn't appear in any of the source material I can think of. You might get characters that chalk mark walls but characters actually drawing a map?

D&D is its own genre. The appeal to me and my buddies since we started playing when we were 10 is exploring underground labyrinths, not pretending to be heroes from movies or books.

A love of maps and exploring seems to be less of a thing now than it was in the early days of D&D. When I was a kid buying a new module with my allowance, the moment of greatest pleasure was pulling off the shrink and then pulling off the cover to peer at the map. The detail, scope, and architecture of the map set off a jolt dopamine to the brain. It represented a place of mystery and adventure. A tactical puzzle, a journey into the unknown, a vault holding secrets and wonders. And a player looking at the map of a dungeon he hadn't played was outright cheating that spoiled the game and would earn a ban from the table. That's how much we valued the sense of exploration and the gradual revealing of the map.

In recent years I've sometimes backed away from having the players map the dungeon. I take the shortcut of drawing them out myself for reasons of convenience and speed of play. But the game does lose something, for me, without the gradual exploration and reveal of the labyrinth from the PCs' point of view.

Quote from: Haffrung;748526When I was a kid buying a new module with my allowance, the moment of greatest pleasure was pulling off the shrink and then pulling off the cover to peer at the map. .

Goddamn right!

 Glad I wasn't the only one.

Quote from: Ravenswing;748488But using your specific example, while I concede that magic would crack a lot of the secrets of modern-day physics, Measurement wouldn't cut it.  Even if you're not one of those GMs who apply size modifiers to the targets of Information spells, you're attempting to measure something you can't see and you have no proof actually exists.  

I'm sorry but that sounds like the very heart of magic.  Really I was expecting a magic as the absolute mastery of physics response.

But you're proud of it would imply that you wrote or suggested it.  Which is interesting, if I recall rightly, Measurement first appeared in a Roleplayer News Letter as a fan submission.  I wonder if I've still got those somewhere.

Quote from: Imp;748522The major thematic antecedent to D&D dungeoneering is archaeological expeditions of the late 19th - early 20th century, exploring pyramids, tombs, and whatnot. The archaeologists were of course interested in mapping for academic purposes; the D&D dungeon distills it into a lurid survival experience.

The first time Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz adventured in Blackmoor dungeon, they did the old Theseus in the Labyrinth routine with the huge roll of twine.

After about two hours, there were suddenly several tugs on the twine, and then it got yanked out of their hands.  It bounced on the floor unwinding rapidly until the last end of it disappeared into the darkness, and they heard
"SLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPP!!!"

That's where mapping came from.

Quote from: Haffrung;748526But the game does lose something, for me, without the gradual exploration and reveal of the labyrinth from the PCs' point of view.

Yes.  That something is "everything."

Large Starships = dungeon crawl.

Quote from: Old Geezer;748550The first time Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz adventured in Blackmoor dungeon, they did the old Theseus in the Labyrinth routine with the huge roll of twine.

After about two hours, there were suddenly several tugs on the twine, and then it got yanked out of their hands.  It bounced on the floor unwinding rapidly until the last end of it disappeared into the darkness, and they heard
"SLUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRPPPPP!!!"

That's where mapping came from.

True story. Ernie told it to me.

Quote from: Benoist;748555True story. Ernie told it to me.

Heh.  Dave told it to me, and he still giggled like a maniac every time he told the story.

Quote from: Old Geezer;748566Heh.  Dave told it to me, and he still giggled like a maniac every time he told the story.

I think it was a jelly or some such that was sucking the rope like a spaghetti. LOL

Quote from: Haffrung;748526D&D is its own genre. The appeal to me and my buddies since we started playing when we were 10 is exploring underground labyrinths, not pretending to be heroes from movies or books.

A love of maps and exploring seems to be less of a thing now than it was in the early days of D&D. When I was a kid buying a new module with my allowance, the moment of greatest pleasure was pulling off the shrink and then pulling off the cover to peer at the map. The detail, scope, and architecture of the map set off a jolt dopamine to the brain. It represented a place of mystery and adventure. A tactical puzzle, a journey into the unknown, a vault holding secrets and wonders. And a player looking at the map of a dungeon he hadn't played was outright cheating that spoiled the game and would earn a ban from the table. That's how much we valued the sense of exploration and the gradual revealing of the map.

In recent years I've sometimes backed away from having the players map the dungeon. I take the shortcut of drawing them out myself for reasons of convenience and speed of play. But the game does lose something, for me, without the gradual exploration and reveal of the labyrinth from the PCs' point of view.

I agree wholeheatedly.

 There has been a shift of focus in modern gaming away from the wonders of settings and toward the ego stoking via fictional personalities.

The original game was all about the setting and uncovering the wonders and mysteries therin. The referee created the initial setting but it was the experiences shared with the players that brought the setting to life. This was important because, through discovery, the shared world was something the DM and players built together.

I have watched as the trend has moved away from settings and more toward character oriented things. The fictional personality is all important, and the setting is just a cheap painted backdrop serving as a greenscreen for characters to perform acts of ego stroking awesome again and again.

What seems to have been forgotten is that the setting (apart from the PCs) is in effect, the collective "character" of the DM. With a total focus on the mechanical capabilities of the characters and the setting largely irrelevant to that whole focus, that shared connection of the setting with the players is diminished.

The lack of mapping or indeed caring about the particulars of the setting at all, is merely one symptom of this.

Quote from: David Johansen;748540But you're proud of it would imply that you wrote or suggested it.  Which is interesting, if I recall rightly, Measurement first appeared in a Roleplayer News Letter as a fan submission.  I wonder if I've still got those somewhere.

I did an article for Roleplayer many years ago ("Minor Magics for GURPS") of a bunch of petty magics that wizards functioning in society -- as opposed to the paramilitary roles beloved of PCs -- would reasonably employ.  Spells like Measurement, Copy, Tell Time and the like were the result.

At best, I'll draw line-and-box graphs to get relationships right and so I can understand the complex.

The idea of drawing everything to scale and spending the time back-and-forth communicating to get it just right is something that stopped contributing anything to my gaming fun long ago.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748584The original game was all about the setting and uncovering the wonders and mysteries therin. The referee created the initial setting but it was the experiences shared with the players that brought the setting to life. This was important because, through discovery, the shared world was something the DM and players built together.

I have watched as the trend has moved away from settings and more toward character oriented things. The fictional personality is all important, and the setting is just a cheap painted backdrop serving as a greenscreen for characters to perform acts of ego stroking awesome again and again.

Errr ... exactly where were these wonders and mysteries of which you speak?

The early years of the hobby were dominated by one-dimensional quasi-settings that were little more than staging areas between dungeons, and those dungeons tended to be Encounter A resulting in Treasure B locked away in Trapped Chest C.  Players didn't burble happily about the rich descriptions GMs might give; they burbled about the monsters they killed and the traps that nearly got them and the cool magical loot they hauled out.  We're sure as hell not talking about Angkor Wat or Machu Picchu.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;748521But personally, I think that's a bit of apples and oranges anyway.  A better analogy would be to compare cave explorers and spelunkers, because those people are going into environments similar to what a D&D party would during a dungeon crawl.  And guess what their view is on maps?

A lot of people have risen to the defense of maps, claiming that they're Really Very Important.

Well, no kidding.  But that was never what we were talking about.  When was the last pirate movie any one of you have seen that had the First Mate balancing inkpot and mapboard on Peg-Leg Pete's back, sketching as they went?  How many of those special forces teams have a cartographer on the fire missions, whipping out the protractors and French curves?

I don't dispute that having a map can be useful, although as someone whose done orienteering and coastal navigation, the ability of a layman to follow a topo map is badly overstated.  I just question where small groups of adventurers feasibly create running tactical maps of their positions.