Mr Settembrini--could you please try to bear in mind that I may have been doing this since before you could read?

Sett's post I think I think is one of the problems folks have with D&D. IMO that's one way of playing...btw his D&D games sound like Feng Shui to me, or at least how I run FS

The only way to work up enthusiasm is to run the game -forget about the system for a minute - in the style you prefer. If the system becomes to intrusive then D&D or IH is clearly not for you. (It also helps if the people you're playing it with also have at least some enthusiasm for the game)

As mentioned the great thing about D&D if you dig the system, is that it caters to a whole range of playstyles. The mistake some folks make is thinking that it only caters to a specific style of play.

Regards,
David R

Then you must have not made good progress in your development. If you were knowledgable and insightful enough, you wouldn´t be here talking about the ifs and why´s of D&D, like some indecisive bride.

And I firmly belive you don´t know fuck about being a player in 3.5, but please feel free to tell us about your recent character to back up your claim.
And I firmly believe you know not much abut the late Dungeon Magazine entries, either.

Correct me if I´m wrong.

Bride-grooms can't be indecisive ? Oh I forgot, milksops, girlie men etc

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SettembriniCorrect me if I´m wrong.

You are so useful.

Damn ya'all, Sett's just trying to help you get enthusiastic about DnD, no reason to give 'im shit for it. If what's been posted here still ain't enough I'd say you're either going to have to just let go and move on, or get zen with it and just play the damn game (borrow some books from fellow gamers if you can). Anything said here about the game is going to be just shadows and hints of the real experience anyway. It didn't hurt to ask though, and hopefully what you've read here has been enough to kindle an interest in a new game for you that you'll enjoy... that's always a great thing.

Quote from: SigmundDamn ya'all, Sett's just trying to help you get enthusiastic about DnD, no reason to give 'im shit for it.

Settembrini may or may not be trying to help, but his posts actually say nothing about D&D itself. He could be describing RQ as we used to play it.

No hard feelings, Sett.

Anyway, Sigmund, you may be right; though I still have to write a response to Thanatos. Later.

Setts right though.

Grab some miniatures and a battle map - theres a good chance that you will really enjoy moving the little men about. Its fun, yknow.

(I believe Ryan Dancey said they liked to think of DnD3 as 'The game where you and your friends kick the asses of cool monsters' which seems like a decent sort of attitude to bring with you. Camaradery! Overcoming Challenges! Cool Monsters! Ass kicking! And D20 itself brings a nice shopping for superpowers hit, which you might enjoy (one more level till I can cast FIREBALL! YAHHH!) Layered on top of all the other stuff you like about roleplaying games - the silly accents, the entertaining dialogue, the exotic locals etc.

And you can get in to fights without being hospitalised for six months!)

Yeah, actually playing 3.5 as player is the easiest way to get into the groove.

Droog:

I think that unless you can get enthusiastic about buying into a pretty well-supported published campaign (short list: Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Wilderlands of High Fantasy, Greyhawk, a few third party things) you're probably going to have to make up your own stuff to really enjoy 3e. That's not a general 'you', that's my call based on what I know from chatting with you on-line.

Here's an example of what I mean. There's a character in my game who is an elven knight. Standard elves, standard fantasy, but not a published world made by someone else. So we generated this:

QuoteSilver Knights of the Eld

Background: The elves of the Eldwold do not maintain a large standing army as humans do. Rather, every able-bodied elf serves voluntarily in a superbly drilled militia, ready to embark on short notice in the face of a large threat to their forest enclave. A number opt to for regular tours of duty as scouts and border guards, while a far smaller number serve as full-time soldiers, battling human and humanoid raiders. A smaller number still belong to knightly orders, drawn almost exclusively from the nobility. The Silver Knights are the most famous and prestigious of these.

The Eldirani, or Silver Knights of the Eld, are the sworn protectors of the Lilac Rood, as the elvish court at Eldamar is known. Selected from the bravest and boldest of elvish gallants, the Silver Knights are admired by the populace as paragons of chivalry and wisdom.  In times of peace, they are a questing order, traveling far and wide on missions of utmost important to the Rood. Slaying fierce monsters, reclaiming elvish relics and righting wrongs inflicted on the far-flung elvish diaspora are among their signature tasks.

When war comes, as it did during the Wrath of Surrotram, the Knights serve as the vanguard of the Eld's military power. They are the elves' primary heavy cavalry, fighting on horse or hippogriff or in cunningly wrought battle chariots, and armed with lance, sword and bow. Each gallant accepted into the order is granted a unique marque, or khallen, by the hand of Queen Ermazhad herself. This sigil, displayed proudly on shield or tunic, identifies the wearer as Eldirani to any who understand elvish heraldry or script. The khallen is the symbol and source of a Silver Knight's power: temporal, magical and spiritual.  Should it be rescinded, all special abilities of the class are lost (see ex-Silver Knights).

Game Mechanics:

The Silver Knights are drawn largely from the fighter class but as many (or even most) elvish warriors are fighter/wizards, there are a fair number of these in their ranks as well. It is possible for paladins to become Eldirani but the generally chaotic bent of the Rood makes admission problematic for them. However Queen Ermazhad has looked more favorably on paladin candidates than her predecessors. Rangers are admitted very occasionally, though institutionalized prejudice against them in the court is very strong (they are regarded as  "too common"). Clerics of Corellon Larethian (and ocasionally other deities) sometimes become Eldirani, though they may find dividing their loyalties between god and queen difficult. Bards serve as companions and heralds to the Knights but very rarely join. No other class has ever gained admission.

Hit Die: d10

Requirements:

To qualify as a Silver Knight, the candidate must meet the following criteria:

   Alignment: Any non-evil
Race: Normally only elves of the Eldwold are even considered for membership. Very occasionally – no more than once every few centuries – an elf of the diaspora is asked to join, invariably due to superlative heroism on behalf of the elvish people. Only once in history has a half-elf, Sir Nividar Lothlann, been called to serve the Lilac Rood.
   Base Attack Bonus: +8
Proficiencies: A Silver Knight must be able to use Heavy Armor and Shield, and must be proficient with Longsword, Longbow, and Lance as well.
   Skills: Diplomacy 4 ranks, Ride 5 ranks, Knowledge (Eld) 5 ranks
Feats: Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-By Attack, Weapon Focus (Bow, Lance, or Longsword)
Special: Sponsorship of another Eldirani or member of the Lilac Rood; approval of Queen Ermazhad; nobility or quest or major service to the Eld.

Class Skills:

The Eldirani's class skills are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Eld) (Int), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

   Skill Points at Each Level: 2+ Int modifier.

Class Features:

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies:  A Silver knight is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armor and shields. Armor check penalties apply as usual.

Charge Bonus: Eldirani are specialists in the mounted charge. They may add this number to attack and damage rolls when making a mounted charge. This bonus stacks with other attack and damage bonuses.

Aura of Courage: Like paladins, silver knights are immune to fear, and all allies within ten feet of them gain a +4 morale bonus to saving throws against same. The rare elvish paladins who join the order discover that their existing ability now functions out to 15'.

Spirited Charge: If the Silver Knight does not have it already, he gains the feat Spirited Charge. If he already possesses it, he may select any fighter class bonus feat he satisfies the prerequisites for instead.

Strong Soul: This special ability gives the Silver Knight a +1 inherent bonus to all Fortitude and Will saves, as well as an additional +1 bonus to saves against all energy drains and death effects.

Smite Foeman: Once per day a silver knight can smite enemies of the Eld, adding her Charisma bonus to her attack and using her Silver Knight level as a damage bonus. Blade, bow, or lance may deliver the smiting. The exact definition of this group is at the  

The Silver Knight
Class Level   Base Attack    Fort   Ref   Will Charge  Special Abilities
1st   +1   +2   +0   +2   +1   Aura of Courage, Spirited Charge
2nd      +2      +3   +0   +3   +1   Smite Foeman, Strong Soul
3rd      +3      +3   +1   +3   +2   Bonus Feat
4th      +4      +4   +1   +4   +2   Damage Reduction 5/silver
5th       +5      +4   +1   +4   +3   Special Mount
6th       +6      +5   +2   +5   +3   Bonus Feat
7th       +7      +5   +2   +5   +4   Call Allies
8th      +8      +6   +2   +6   +4   Damage Reduction 10/mithril
9th       +9      +6   +3   +6   +5   Holy Sword
10th       +10      +7   +3   +7   +5   Holy Aura

(cont'd) DM's discretion, but in general traditional enemies of the elves or the Eldwold (goblinoids, drow, humans of Sarmis and Valyr, dwarfs, beastmen) are in the group unless they are elf-friends or directly involved in a project which benefits of the elven race or homeland, and others are not in the group unless they have a history of enmity towards elves or are directly involved in a task which harms the elves.

Bonus Feat: The Silver Knight may select any fighter class bonus feat she satisfies the prerequisites for at 3rd and 6th level. Alternatively, she may select Alertness, Extra Smiting (DotF), Leadership, or such skills from Sword and Fist or other supplements as seem appropriate for a defender of the Lilac Rood (DM adjudication).

Damage Reduction: As the Eldirani advances, he gains the supernatural ability to ignore some of the damage done by mortal weapons. At sixth level, he ignores five points of damage from every attack unless a silvered weapon is employed. Eldirani wardpacts require silver as a vulnerability, as it is sacred to elves. At eight level, only mithral or magical weapons suffice and the Silver Knight ignores ten points of damage. This damage reduction does not stack with that gained from other sources.

Special Mount: As the paladin ability. Eldirani mounts tend to be elvish light warhorses but may be giant eagles, hippogriffs or similar creatures at the DM's discretion.

Call Allies: This spell-like ability summons 2d4 4th level celestial elvish fighters in mithril breastplate and shield, armed with mithril longswords and mighty masterwork longbows with mithril-tipped arrows from beyond the Veil to fight for the Knight. These are magical beings, not mortals, though they appear to be (cf. horn of Valhalla). They will gladly fight the enemies of the knight until they or their opponents are slain or until an hour has elapsed, whichever comes first. Their equipment all vanishes with them. This ability is usable once per day.

Holy Sword: This spell-like ability operates exactly as the paladin spell of the same name. Duration is 1 round per Silver Knight level. This ability is usable once per day.

Holy Aura: The most powerful Silver Knights may employ this spell-like ability once per day. It operates similarly to the clerical spell of the same name and lasts for up to 10 rounds. Saves versus the blindness effect are Fort DC 18+ the knight's Charisma bonus (if any). The elvish aura is a bright glittering silver.

Ex-Silver Knights:

Like paladins, Silver Knights are expected to adhere to a code of chivalrous conduct. Any Silver Knight who willfully commits an evil act, behaves manifestly unchivalrously or betrays her duty to the Eld (to whose collective spirit the Eldirani owes allegiance, even above the person of the monarch) loses all special abilities (including her mount) and may no longer progress in the class. An atonement, quest and the will of the Queen are necessary to restore Eldirani status.

This is a prestige class, a tool the game offers that you can use for a couple of different things (or both): a tool to bring your own world to life by showing what people can become by growing into certain roles, or an extra dimension for powergaming (word used without rancor).  D&D3 has great support for powergaming, up there with Rifts but with more underlying consistency. If you don't like powergaming you will have to make decisions about what you want and don't want from published supplements that are fairly severe, and accept that players are going to come up with some pretty deadly stuff within any reasonably fun constraints you provide.

D&D3 combat is like a slightly slower version of fantasy trip combat (much slower at high levels) with some extra tricks built in and d20fied.

I had more to say but I'm out of steam.

My above post assumes you're DM. Yeah, if you can play, try it out, I know tons of gamers who are happy to play 3e any time even if they won't (or feel like they can't) run it.

D&D is alright but you can live without it.

The combat system is good in that you have lots of options (if you know the rules) once you factor in feats, spells, equipment, and terrain. It's not particularly realistic - it's an ok approximation of heroic fantasy.  

The fun thing for many people (in addition to stuff common to most rpgs) is that you are given a bunch of parts and you can try putting them together in different ways to see what happens.  It's akin to building a deck in a CCG and playing it except that you are building a character that you add to over time and you put them through much more dynamic situations that a simple card battle.  If you read posts in D&D centric boards, many of them are discussing these sorts of combos - Feat A with prestige class X with Weapon 123.

Does this sound interesting or tedious?  If the former, then find a DM you like and try it as a player.  If the latter, forget it.  Sure, you can use D&D for totally different stuff but it excels in dungeon crawls and similar combat intensive situations.  If you're going to to spend all of your time plotting with NPCs, you don't need to spend an hour detailing a character.

Quote from: droogMr Settembrini--could you please try to bear in mind that I may have been doing this since before you could read?

Did you learn some life lessons along the way, o decrepit one? Maybe one or two about not insulting people who are trying to help you?

Personally, I have no idea why they'd bother.

Seanchai

i'll agree with some of the earlier posts on this, and something you yourself mentioned, droog.  the best thing about (current) d&d is the board combat.  the campaign i ran a few years ago shone when they got into fights.  the players just clicked into tactical mode.  they would count squares, plan tumbles, work in or around AoO's, the works.  since it was 3 characters, hardly any spellcasting ability, the standard CR/EL ratings were always off.  but they could routinely beat stuff above their ability due to good tactics.  and they had a blast doing it.  

it can do other stuff, sure.  but "smashy smashy" on the board is its forte.  you don't even need to invest for that.  just use a chessboard and pieces or coins or whatever and you're set.  

i don't really get the whole forge thing, but thanatos02's post also explained 3.5 beautifully, i thought.  ymmv etc.

Quote from: droogI sincerely hope this is not seen as 'bashing' (than which I can hardly imagine a more useless pastime).

Droog, here's the thing. There's D&D the rules, and there's D&D as it really is. D&D as it really is is a very complex thing, of which the rules are just one important part, and of which the tacit social relations and virtual gameworld that are folded into said rules are a more important one.

D&D the rules is theory. D&D as it really is is performative.

Funnily enough, there are versions of D&D that are deliberately designed to match up the expectations gained from merely studying the theory with the subsequent performance of play. What I know of Iron Heroes fits that description.

If so, then I'd say, if you don't like surprises, play Iron Heroes.