Man, people sure like to talk about how they don't categorize - unless of course it's middle class whites. Then we can talk all day long about this category or that category, lumping together willy nilly. The misconceptions and prejudices are really quite stunning.

I'll just focus on one example:

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWell... middle-class is a broad category. What you are talking about is your average two-cars, two-kids suburbanite, right? But those people aren't gamers--I'm talking about their 18-year old son.

Two cars? Check
Two Kids? Check
Suburb? Check
Gamer? Check

Oh wait...that can't be! It breaks my model! Guess I'll have to sell a car.

I don't know how to tell you this Pierce, but many of the people with who I've played in the last two years would have the same four checks. During that time, I played in only one group of repeats for two sessions. The remainder (far too few for my gaming jones, alas) were all conventions and so forth. There were Gays and Straights, Conservatives and Liberals, Born-agains, agnostics, and Atheists, Middle Class, Working Class, and Rich. One thing I've never seen in all my years of gaming was any pattern or classification.

When reality doesn't even come close to your theory, it's time to check your assumptions.

Quote from: James J SkachMan, people sure like to talk about how they don't categorize - unless of course it's middle class whites. Then we can talk all day long about this category or that category, lumping together willy nilly. The misconceptions and prejudices are really quite stunning.

Did you take a look at the diagrams I posted? I drop names like Bourdieu's not out of pretentiousness but in order to give you a chance to read up on sociology, so we can have an informed discussion here rather than an exchange about what people "feel" is the case about this and that.

At a minimum, if you want to talk to me, you will read my posts carefully even as you realize that a) if I gave you a full account of what I'm thinking they'd grow too long for you to read them; and at any rate b) I'm not getting paid for this, you know?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDid you take a look at the diagrams I posted? I drop names like Bourdieu's not out of pretentiousness but in order to give you a chance to read up on sociology, so we can have an informed discussion here rather than an exchange about what people "feel" is the case about this and that.

At a minimum, if you want to talk to me, you will read my posts carefully even as you realize that a) if I gave you a full account of what I'm thinking they'd grow too long for you to read them; and at any rate b) I'm not getting paid for this, you know?

Nah, I'm at work and they have a stupid French name/Pretentious filter. And jesus, if my boss came in and saw me looking at sociology? I'd be fucked...

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAt a minimum, if you want to talk to me, you will read my posts carefully even as you realize that a) if I gave you a full account of what I'm thinking they'd grow too long for you to read them; and at any rate b) I'm not getting paid for this, you know?

You presume that I want a full account of what you're thinking.  If it's anything like this:

Quote from: Pierce InverarityAnd we need such ultra-hardcore sociological diagrams if we want to get results that can take into account both people's uniqueness and their class identity.

Until the Pierre Bourdieu of gaming comes along I will say this.

Being as it is an invention by THEM, the internet is naturally completely fucked up. With some exceptions.

You get to meet people who are otherwise shut out of the invisibly gated community that's middle-class life. You play online games with working-class people. And you notice things about the way in which they play a character, including:

No introspection.

No introspection, nor any of the behavior that's associated with that--conflictedness, self-loathing, unique-snowflake syndrome.

This is not to say that the PCs played by working-class gamers are shallow. On the contrary, it's to say that, used in this fashion, the term "shallow" is ridiculously middle-class.

...then I doubt we have much to discuss on this topic. Invisbly-gated community? "Shallow" is ridiculously middle-class?

Worker of the world unite!

EDIT: All of which belongs in Off-topic, at best.  And I use the term "best" with some hesitation.

Quote from: SettembriniAhem. Dramatic narrative? You aren´t talking about adventure RPGs any more, I assume?
Dramatic narrative, those are fighting words. Please keep the discussion grounded in the realms of ARPGs. there are other forae for other hobbies for your ilk.

0_o

(*looks around comment, checking for things possibly missed*)

o_0

Hmm. I want to respond to this, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the hell you're actually trying to say. I'd certainly like to (that is, if we actually HAVE opposing viewpoints as opposed to just different definitions for words) so we can continue our little dramatic narrative.

Perhaps you could define 'Adventure RPGs' for me, or the possible political agendas the auto-fire rules in the Hero System (or any other for that matter) embody.

Quote from: James J Skach...then I doubt we have much to discuss on this topic.

So far you haven't even shown that you know what a discussion actually is.

You don't have an argument. You have nothing.

Quote from: chaosvoyagerPerhaps you could define 'Adventure RPGs' for me,

Noooooooo.....

Don't tempt the Prussians! Remember '66!

Any game I make will have an agenda: My agenda is to sell my game.

Anything else I care little about.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo far you haven't even shown that you know what a discussion actually is.

You don't have an argument. You have nothing.

Some "arguments" deserve laughing off and ignoring.

I'm not gonna engage in detailed debate with a man who thinks that the toronto Blue-Jays are an alien cult from the fourth planet in the Deneb system, engaged in a conspiracy to infect our young with a disease that gives them all a powerful right hook.

Quote from: chaosvoyager0_o

(*looks around comment, checking for things possibly missed*)

o_0

Hmm. I want to respond to this, but for the life of me I can't figure out what the hell you're actually trying to say. I'd certainly like to (that is, if we actually HAVE opposing viewpoints as opposed to just different definitions for words) so we can continue our little dramatic narrative.

Perhaps you could define 'Adventure RPGs' for me, or the possible political agendas the auto-fire rules in the Hero System (or any other for that matter) embody.

Just ignore him.  "Adventure RPG" is just his special term for "the right way to play", just like "Narrativism" is on the Forge.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo far you haven't even shown that you know what a discussion actually is.

You don't have an argument. You have nothing.

I wasn't here for an "argument." I wasn't even here for a discussion.  I was just here to point out the stupidity of things like "dumb-ass-white-people" with which you implicitly agreed when you said, in response to Wil's assertion:

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWell... middle-class is a broad category. What you are talking about is your average two-cars, two-kids suburbanite, right? But those people aren't gamers--I'm talking about their 18-year old son.

Those people aren't gamers – that was your assertion, not mine. And the bias you reveal when you say that because you obviously have little experience outside your own little world about who makes up the world of gamers.

I don't make such assumptions.  I don't know whether or not people who are "middle-class" or "working class" or white or black or gay or straight are gamers. I've seen and played alongside all kinds.  So to assume that your "average two-cars, two kids suburbanite" middle-class individual isn't a gamer is ludicrous on its face.

Which call into question anything else you build upon it for a theory.

Quote from: J ArcaneSome "arguments" deserve laughing off and ignoring.

I'm not gonna engage in detailed debate with a man who thinks that the toronto Blue-Jays are an alien cult from the fourth planet in the Deneb system, engaged in a conspiracy to infect our young with a disease that gives them all a powerful right hook.

Are you implying that to dissuade people from the idea the your avergage two-car, two kid suburbanites don't game is akin to your Blue-Jays-as-Alien-Cult?

That would explain quite a bit.

Quote from: flyingmiceWhat do RPGs have to do with art?

-clash

I was wondering the same thing.

Quote from: James J SkachAre you implying that to dissuade people from the idea the your avergage two-car, two kid suburbanites don't game is akin to your Blue-Jays-as-Alien-Cult?

That would explain quite a bit.

No, I was implying that Pierce's willy-nilly slapping of class labels on games and gamers was equivalent to suggesting the Toronto Blue Jays are an alien cult.

Quote from: James J SkachSo to assume that your "average two-cars, two kids suburbanite" middle-class individual isn't a gamer is ludicrous on its face.

Basic reading comprehension includes getting the relative weight of a statement in the context of an argument. I was telling Wil: "No, that's not whom I have in mind--I'm talking about adolescent Vampire gamers right now, and here's what I have to say about them."

But you zero in on one sentence that doesn't go over your head and which seems to address your precious personal experience.

You are indeed unique.

In the magnitude of your thickness.